He heee heeeeee!

[womsterr]

Guys - don't shoot the messenger. Remember the ATF recently charged and convicted a guy for having a malfunctioning AR that fired off 2 or 3 rounds on one occasion. It doesn't have to make sense...

That is why I am overly anal on my builds. All 922R US items have to be marked and usually go one part over and NEVER could on a US mag...

It's BS but u gotta be safe...

[jeff47]

I don't think anyone here is trying to bash him or fight with him on the subject, I think we're just wondering if he read the first post correctly. (Or if Big block is using more than friction to assemble that gun in the picture which then I'd have to agree with him) If he is correct based on the original post that would imply that anyone having all of the demilled receiver pieces of a MG in their possession (even cut up and scattered across the shop) would imply constructive intent. I don't think there's any question that he's more knowledgable than I am as far as MG law, just trying to get clarification.

[Apis Mellifera]

Not only is that not a machine gun, it's not even a gun and is therefore not illegal. It is a collection of non-functioning parts that resembles a firearm. The receiver clearly is a current demil with diagonal torch cuts removing specified material. The OP stated that he is unable to weld and merely cleaned the slag off the demilled parts so the parts are not attached. Proximity of the parts to each other does not equate to functionality or intent make functional. It if did, everyone at Apex would be in prison, as they recently sold hundreds of matched .50 cal, Thompson, and MG34 demils.

[George W]

Wow
Bob has some valid points and has been in the buisness for a long time. We should all be mindfull of what is posted on this and every other board we visit. It will be attached to our names for life. They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

With that being said :

I read through the 3 pages of this thread and looked at the picture several times.

I can't find anything saying the parts are tack welded together. Or that all of the internals are installed in it. I'll I see is that he spent 12 lunch hours cleaning the slag from the pieces. How it is being held together is a mystery and wasn't explained.

From looking at the picture it appears to have been a 3 cut demil. I can still see the cuts and they don't look like they have been rewelded. I can't tell if the internals are in it or not. I'm not sure if or how Bob can.The center cut area does appear to have a shinny spot of something in the middle and the pieces seem to have some discoloration in the same area.

I'm just going to look at this post as a reminder to be aware of what we write and post on this board.

Perhaps some have jumped to conclusions .

Bob thanks for the reminder.
BB thanks for sharing a picture of your new kit.
I wish I would have bought one.

I hope to see this thing up close and running as a legal S/A at one of the events in the future.

GW

[bigblock]

If my cat coughs up a hairball 3 feet from that thing it will fall apart in all 4 pieces. There are no tack welds, bondo, super glue, or bubblegum holding it together. I would think if having it mocked up in such a manner were illegal, than owning it and having all the pieces in the same residence would be illegal also. Anyway Im having trouble with any outside sources wanting to help me with the semi mod as I live in cali and we all cant be trusted here with such evil devices.

[FireControlman]

Originally Posted by bigblock

Anyway Im having trouble with any outside sources wanting to help me with the semi mod as I live in cali and we all cant be trusted here with such evil devices.

I'm in San Diego, we're in the same boat. PM me for my email and we can pull resources if you'd like.



bmg17a1 : Thanks for looking out for a fellow member of this forum and thank you for contributions as a firearms enthusiast and supporter.

[bmg17a1]

Well, apologies to all for misapprehending that there were no tacks between the torched receiver parts. My computer does not do pictures well and I looked at the receiver several times and seemed to see tacks. I am very glad that the SG was not tacked together! However, notwithstanding that the receiver is not tacked together, bear in mind that a torched receiver remains MG parts and ATF continues to have a legal interest in how they are used or misused. And contrary to the comments by Apis, ATF has complete discretion about what constitutes both an MG and intent. Further, MG parts, even though destroyed to current specs and approved for import by ATF, can be construed as an MG, singly or in concert, such as the recent recall of PPSh trunnions. Possession of these trunnions became possession of an unregistered MG. No issue of proximity, functional or otherwise. Possession of the front and rear sawcut sections cut from an UZI upper became possession of an unregistered MG because there wasn't enough missing from between them. There are many examples of parts constituting an unregistered MG, both destroyed and whole. Even holes drilled through a lower or a receiver, without even assembling the auto sear. Think about that: a hole constitutes an MG.
The history of the increasing severity of destruction requirements is based on the perception by ATF that kits are being illegally constructed into "functional" MGs. Plenty of truth to that, unfortunately, and we all pay the price of harsher restrictions and less useable parts, when ATF perceives that the end users are not complying with the regs. Further, consider their standard for what can constitute construction of a "functional" MG. Not only has ATF required more and more drastic destruction, but not very long ago, ATF finally specified the time frame in which they believe it is possible to "readily restore" or "readily convert" a firearm to fire full auto. Eight hours. That about encompasses every kit available, not to mention dozens of types of semi-autos. Think about that. What do you suppose ATF is up to.
Perhaps I saw a tacked receiver simply because I have seen dozens and dozens of different MG kits assembled in all sorts of ways, many which will fire FA despite the crude ways they've been assembled. All done for display purposes, with the owner merely believing that the display is a non-gun, and just a collection of non-functional parts. FTB's standard is two shots with one function of the trigger and it's an MG. Doesn't matter how much duct tape, hose clamps, wire, and other handy materials they use to construct it. Two shots and it is both a firearm and an MG. I don't know for sure what Big Block's intent was with his assembly of the kit that way, but I sure can speculate, and with the header being "hee hee hee", my suspicions are confirmed. Been there, done that, and I know exactly how I felt. If ATF were to get ahold of that SG and its owner by some dint of dumb luck or Murphy, they would happily ascribe intent to build an unregistered MG, which is their job, and they would have it running in a hour or two with all the plumbing supplies at hand. Which is also their job. Of the two guys I talked to who were reported to the police for building "illegal" MGs, one by an employee and the other by a visitor to his house. ATF was called in in both cases and pushed the charges with the local DA and eventually the AG of his state. One got his stuff back after a year. He had letters from ATF about how to construct a semi 1910, e-mails from builders who had an approved design and other casual documentation that confirmed that he was trying to build a legal semi-auto. The other guy didn't have any such backup, and wound up with some sort of plea arrangement with the DA, but he didn't get his kit back and lost his job, among other discomforts. you never know who is watching, or sees or has some agenda to promote at our expense.....
I spent a few weeks in Century Arms bonded warehouse torching some 400 HMGs of different sorts trying to cut them in such a way as to make them easier to rebuild. Had a few unpleasant chats with the Century rep who was overseeing the project because he figured out what I was doing. ATF understands what is going on and pays attention to our behavior. I looked at the SG and I though, damn, why does someone put a picture of a completely assembled kit on public view. We can count the angels on the head of a pin about whether it is an MG or not, but what is most important to consider is who sees it and what do they see.
I personally know ATF people who follow all these sites, but only one of whom is an MG owner and is supportive of our interests. The others are not indifferent to what they see and do feel obligated to use the information for official purposes. New guys see it and figure its OK to assemble the kits, and, hell, why not just tack it together. And let's make the internals operate. It's just a collection of parts.....How many of you guys have seen kits displayed assembled in the manner of the SG at guns shows, etc? Why do you suppose that none of the kit retailers don't do that? Apex included.
We need to be more circumspect about what we publicly display so that there is absolutely no room for misunderstanding. It is easy to get complacent, and even more disturbing, believe that ATF isn't serious or the laws/regs don't need to be observed because they are stupid. The reality is that the antigun culture is successfully dispossessing us of more and more of the parts and pieces of the firearms that we enjoy, and we are complicit in this by not closely monitoring our behavior. There is no reward for virtue, but high price for not being careful. It doesn't take any more effort to be careful of how we present ourselves.
I applaud the guys building semi MGs, the evolving industry and hobby, and IMO it must be a fierce subversion in the views of the antigun culture, who must cringe at the thought of it. Apologies to Big Block for singling him out, and for misconstruing the picture, but there is a lot to lose by not considering the big picture and making every effort to preserve what we have. We're all in it together.
Back to the regularly scheduled show.

Bob Naess

[reff]

I dont post much on here but as Bob says,ATF has sole discretion on MG parts. CZ 24 and CZ 26 Part Kits are unregistered MG's and 80 % receiver tubes.I found this out in March when they took my CZ 24 kits and 80% tubes that I had for sale on Gun Broker.The Agent told me they are unregistered Machine Guns.I was a Current SOT and requested to put them on a Form 2,but they still to took them.The decision on the CZ 24 Kits stem from when they took on Interordnance of America a few years ago.The agent was very nice and polite and told me they took a CZ 24 kit with duct tape and a PVC pipe and got it to fire, and deamed them Unregistered MG's.I'm glad I wasn't the one pulling the trigger.

[jsquared94]

As sad as it is to say, thanks to Bob for reminding us that we must practice our "critical thinking skills" when considering the ATF's viewpoint.

BigBlock: best wishes with your semi build!

Regards,
Jared