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I think the fact that the seller admits in the add that it was an unregistered machine gun last week and they just saw cut it a few days ago would scare me. That said I have one that's saw cut in the early 70's. Single band saw cut that I've wondered the same thing about.
 

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I think the fact that the seller admits in the add that it was an unregistered machine gun last week and they just saw cut it a few days ago would scare me. That said I have one that's saw cut in the early 70's. Single band saw cut that I've wondered the same thing about.
Wouldnt they have had to demil it according to CURRENT specs, IE 'must displace at least 1/8 metal with a torch at 45 degree cuts" or something to that effect?

If they hadnt mentioned it was a live gun just last week......
 

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Wouldnt they have had to demil it according to CURRENT specs, IE 'must displace at least 1/8 metal with a torch at 45 degree cuts" or something to that effect?

If they hadnt mentioned it was a live gun just last week......
Yes and it's a minimum of (three) 1/4" torch cuts.
CaptMax
 

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Saw cutting with discarded sections, crushing, torch cutting, torch cutting with discarded sections, etc. A number of different demil methods have been used (and obviously approved) in recent years for various models of guns. I don't know what the approved methods are for a Chauchat, if one even exists. A torch cut with be preferred by me, of course.
 

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Saw cutting with discarded sections, crushing, torch cutting, torch cutting with discarded sections, etc. A number of different demil methods have been used (and obviously approved) in recent years for various models of guns. I don't know what the approved methods are for a Chauchat, if one even exists. A torch cut with be preferred by me, of course.
Demill doesnt vary with gun, ATF just says what has to be cut. Current regs are at least 3 diagonal cuts with a torch, jury is still out in 1/8th or 1/4 inch. I said 1/8th, Max says 1/4, I know one of us just needs to look it up. End result is the same....we found ways around torch cut receivers, but once the BBL ban really went into effect, things got real scarce.

EDIT: ATF DOES give examples for specific guns. I did a quick search and found they show exactly where to cut a Sten, FAL, and HK. Im sure there must be other diagrams..Max, you are correct. Its 1/4 displacement.....now is that PER PASS or for the whole 3 cut total??
 

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There has also been some confusion on exactly what has to be cut on the Chauchat, I seem to remember the feds requiring the inner tube be cut on some that were imported just a few years back. Dont know if that was directed by the import branch or just a zealous field agent approving the demills, but I do know a few of us waited some time to be very disappointed at what finally landed
 

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There have been guns demilled by crushing in the past few years. Right now Apex is selling AK and AR receivers that were handled this way, in quantity. The kits have been selling for a while. Plenty of polish PPS-43s have come in recently as well, with saw cuts that had sections discarded. Demil isn't done only one way or with one tool, it's whatever the ATF permits or demands, and then lets come out of bond. Sometimes they change their mind, as has been seen with Maxim, PPSH-41 and Uzi kits. Torch cutting seems to be the most common method, I agree.

I don't like the cuts on this kit because it looks like the whole receiver is there. Were one of the center pieces trashed, I think it would pass some of the recently approved destruction standards. On the other hand, as another poster has stated, the Chauchat is an unusual gun. The ATF may require different things to be cut, and I've seen opinions vary on the topic, so it's something that I can't speak on with any authority.
 

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There have been guns demilled by crushing in the past few years. Right now Apex is selling AK and AR receivers that were handled this way, in quantity. The kits have been selling for a while. Plenty of polish PPS-43s have come in recently as well, with saw cuts that had sections discarded. Demil isn't done only one way or with one tool, it's whatever the ATF permits or demands, and then lets come out of bond. Sometimes they change their mind, as has been seen with Maxim, PPSH-41 and Uzi kits. Torch cutting seems to be the most common method, I agree.

I don't like the cuts on this kit because it looks like the whole receiver is there. Were one of the center pieces trashed, I think it would pass some of the recently approved destruction standards. On the other hand, as another poster has stated, the Chauchat is an unusual gun. The ATF may require different things to be cut, and I've seen opinions vary on the topic, so it's something that I can't speak on with any authority.
Greasegun parts collected during the 1980's. Not sure when they were demilled though. These are not my parts, they belong to a friend that I helped build a few posties from the collected parts. This is the leftovers after building 2 guns. Note the torching and crushing.
 

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> Demil isn't done only one way or with one tool, it's whatever the ATF permits or demands, and then lets come out of bond. Sometimes they change their mind, as has been seen with Maxim, PPSH-41 and Uzi kits.<

Having torched cut up many MGs in bond and having to follow the current ATF inspector's guidelines for doing the work, the requirements for destroying MG receivers in bond is very specific and the particular current standard is enforced at the time. It does not change at the w him of the inspectors.There is no variation from whatever are the current requirements. ATF also was requiring that Form 6s for import designate specifically whether the MGs were to be cut or to be held for release as post-May samples. There were some very valuable and unusual MGs that got torched because that was how those serial numbers were listed on the import paperwork and there was no way to change their status.
At the time the current destruction requirements were three diagonal cuts of at least 1/4" per cut for the types of MGs that were being destroyed. MG42 receivers required four cuts, for instance.
Changes by ATF for the designated part or parts to be destroyed, and changes to location and number of cuts, etc are implemented prior to or after the destruction of guns, not in bond.
It is good to see the participants on this board and those involved with the semi-auto MG industry/hobby understanding the relationship of NFA regs to building and possessing semi-auto MGs, because not so long ago, the attitude was that NFA regs didn't have anything to do with building semi-autos, and builders could do anything they wanted since the semis were not MGs. It took quite a while for many to understand how interrelated NFA is with semi-auto building. FWIW
 

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Changes by ATF for the designated part or parts to be destroyed, and changes to location and number of cuts, etc are implemented prior to or after the destruction of guns, not in bond.
Bob,
I'm glad that you stepped in with your experience, you've done a lot of this work. I think that we are in agreement here, it's that there was some unclear wording on my part. My comment wasn't meant to mean that the standards changed at whim during the process, but that they have evolved, and that whatever comes out of the warehouse properly is what comes out of the current Demil standards. These have changed as time progressed: The maxim side plate issues, the various PPSH standards that involved recalls, saw cut AKs, torch cut; cut through trunnion milled guns, crushed stamped ones, torched stamped and so on. The fact that so many changes have occurred caused problems of its own.
CB
 

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If one want's to play in the demill and semi rebuild game it is imperative that you know the laws and regulations.
Stupidity is no excuse and the BATFE is not one to try and mess with as far as interpretations of laws.
When in doubt ask them, as it is better to be safe than incarcerated!!! :eek:
CaptMax
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I long for the "good old days" when an unregistered receiver only had to be cut in half. That was back in the 70's/80's. Used to always take a hacksaw to gun shows cause you never knew what you may find/be shown out in the parking lot in the trunk of a car.
 

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they won't incarcerate if it's the only charge. They'll just confiscate and give you 7 years to pay the fine. which could be anywhere from $500-$7000.





It's when you've done something beyond dumb that has already gathered their attention that grabs the high end fines/jail time. " icing on the cake"
 

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I think the fact that the seller admits in the add that it was an unregistered machine gun last week and they just saw cut it a few days ago would scare me. That said I have one that's saw cut in the early 70's. Single band saw cut that I've wondered the same thing about.
I don't suppose your parts kit from the 70's is for sale? I have a registered DEWAT and just got my Form 1 approved to reactivate. I could really use a barrel and bolt.
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...remember...?

Back in the late 80's,I remember a guy at the Indy 1500 show that had a couple dozen MAC-10's in .45ACP that were saw-cut-one-time. That was the current ATF reg. The internals had been removed before the cut and just putting a tie-wrap around the rec made it functional. He sold out in less than 15 min before the show even opened. Wonder where they all went...? Couple shows later he showed up with several UZI's in the same condition. Never could bring myself to buy one and take the risk.
 
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