1916 WWI German Sled Mount
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What is the restore plan? Period camo pattern, or single color? Looks straight except for the copper paint. I have found many times those messy rattle can jobs have helped preserve some nice specimens under that paint
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Yes it will all depend upon what I find under the paint. But I would love one with the shields and early camouflage on it. I will be posting a thread shortly on the Mg08 I also purchased with it, it has the camo still on the barrel jacket.
CaptMax
CaptMax
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How do you get all the cool toys?
Sled looks real nice. If the wood is decent you got a good 1
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I have not seen any that were blued under the paint. I have a Sled stripped right now and not one bit of bluing. I have not seen any in Dark grey either. There was an entire thread on Mg42.us about the proper paint colors. Goes from a bluish Grey early to a darker green late war. Camo is very rare on Sleds and I think most is post war applied. I have seen less than a handful of correct examples, of which I had one. Only about 20% camo left but was original with the rest being surface rust.
If you really want to get the correct color look for painted WWI German items from 1916 and copy the color. I think you will find it to be a darker greyish green.
Its kind of sad for me but right now I have 5 Sleds at my house... in a few weeks, I will only have one! Of course I will likely soon have a new MG to make up for their absences.
Some helpful threads.... we really went pretty deep into the issues on mg42.us.
http://mg42.us/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=9256&hilit=paint+on+sled
http://mg42.us/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=9256&hilit=paint+on+sled&start=20
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Captmax I would leave the gold paint on it and have a coup[le teeth done to accent it that way you will be the new range pimp and the envy of all your buddies :rofl: Nice score I can't wait to see it all completed with the new toy mounted up on it.
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Beautiful mount Captmax!!!
In regard to bluing tripods, bluing is a very poor choice for a finish that must be reliably weather resistant. It does not tolerate dampness well and does not provide a surface that is relatively impervious to wet. Bluing requires constant attention and maintainance to protect it from wet conditions or even mild dampness, and it is very poor in prolonged exposure without protection.
Bluing that is painted over generally wears away pretty quickly since it is not an especially practical surface for paint adhesion. However, bluing under paint, often does survive well, but all the blued finishes I have countered under paint, have been applied to lightly or heavily polished surfaces, which is not an especially good surface for paint adhesion. However, when there is a 100% chance that a tripod is going to be painted, I cannot see any rationale, for a number of reasons, for bluing it as a base after production. Primer, cadmium plating, phosphate get, and other more weather resistant finishes that are more adhesive than bluing to hold paint, but not bluing.
There are other reasons I can think of as to why a blued finish would not be used for tripods, but the above is the most important.
Currently I have examples of every type of vintage tripod issued with some exceptions that are jusr not available or were only made as prototypes or short runs. None were blued and I can't think of any vintage issue tripods that were blued for any vintage MGs going back to Maxim's early guns. Black oxide finish on tripods is fairly unique and recent such as for the PKMs. In my experience, T&E rear mounts, jam handles, chains, pins, traverse stops and similar small parts have been blued and sometimes painted, but that is about it.
I've owned probably thirty MG08 sleds of all makers, and still have fifteen, and have seen a lot more than that. Of course, that is not a statistically valid number to be representative of all sleds, but I believe it is adequate to determine this issue. None of these tripods showed any evidence of bluing as a factory finish that I can recall, and of the half dozen that I have restored, several with chemical paint removers, none showed any evidence of bluing as a base finish.
The possibility that areas of exposed rusted steel were originally blued on all these old sleds is extremely remote, and in my experience, not possible. The last point against the rusted steel areas having had bluing for a base finish is easily verified by looking at the bluing under the painted jackets and occasional receivers of other vintage MGs like Schwarzlose, Vickers, etc but mostly 0&s and 08/15s. Most of the time, the bluing is still there, protected by the paint from corrosion and rust. Even bluing under paint that has chipped or peeled, that has been exposed over many years to the elements can still be seen. If sleds had been blued there would still be lots of bluing remaining under coats of paint on all surfaces of the sleds, but I have never seen any such remains. Painting of the receivers and jackets occurred in all armies, but painting wasn't used to protect the finish, but for camouflage, with protection of the finish an added advantage. The MGs themselves would be well cared for, but mounts would need to be finished in a manner that would reduce maintainance as close to zero as possible.
So, I think it is fair to say that MGs with blued finishes would be subject to continuous and thorough cleaning, oiling and protection as much as humanly possible under extremely adverse conditions in wartime. Expending such effort on a blued mount doesn't make any sense to me when paint is the practical solution, so wasting time, expense and labor to blue mounts at the factory, only to require painting to protect them also doesn't make sense.
That's the best I can make it from my experience. FWIW
Bluing that is painted over generally wears away pretty quickly since it is not an especially practical surface for paint adhesion. However, bluing under paint, often does survive well, but all the blued finishes I have countered under paint, have been applied to lightly or heavily polished surfaces, which is not an especially good surface for paint adhesion. However, when there is a 100% chance that a tripod is going to be painted, I cannot see any rationale, for a number of reasons, for bluing it as a base after production. Primer, cadmium plating, phosphate get, and other more weather resistant finishes that are more adhesive than bluing to hold paint, but not bluing.
There are other reasons I can think of as to why a blued finish would not be used for tripods, but the above is the most important.
Currently I have examples of every type of vintage tripod issued with some exceptions that are jusr not available or were only made as prototypes or short runs. None were blued and I can't think of any vintage issue tripods that were blued for any vintage MGs going back to Maxim's early guns. Black oxide finish on tripods is fairly unique and recent such as for the PKMs. In my experience, T&E rear mounts, jam handles, chains, pins, traverse stops and similar small parts have been blued and sometimes painted, but that is about it.
I've owned probably thirty MG08 sleds of all makers, and still have fifteen, and have seen a lot more than that. Of course, that is not a statistically valid number to be representative of all sleds, but I believe it is adequate to determine this issue. None of these tripods showed any evidence of bluing as a factory finish that I can recall, and of the half dozen that I have restored, several with chemical paint removers, none showed any evidence of bluing as a base finish.
The possibility that areas of exposed rusted steel were originally blued on all these old sleds is extremely remote, and in my experience, not possible. The last point against the rusted steel areas having had bluing for a base finish is easily verified by looking at the bluing under the painted jackets and occasional receivers of other vintage MGs like Schwarzlose, Vickers, etc but mostly 0&s and 08/15s. Most of the time, the bluing is still there, protected by the paint from corrosion and rust. Even bluing under paint that has chipped or peeled, that has been exposed over many years to the elements can still be seen. If sleds had been blued there would still be lots of bluing remaining under coats of paint on all surfaces of the sleds, but I have never seen any such remains. Painting of the receivers and jackets occurred in all armies, but painting wasn't used to protect the finish, but for camouflage, with protection of the finish an added advantage. The MGs themselves would be well cared for, but mounts would need to be finished in a manner that would reduce maintainance as close to zero as possible.
So, I think it is fair to say that MGs with blued finishes would be subject to continuous and thorough cleaning, oiling and protection as much as humanly possible under extremely adverse conditions in wartime. Expending such effort on a blued mount doesn't make any sense to me when paint is the practical solution, so wasting time, expense and labor to blue mounts at the factory, only to require painting to protect them also doesn't make sense.
That's the best I can make it from my experience. FWIW
I agree with some of what what you say, but there is no evidence of the bluing process as a final finish on sleds used during the production life of the German Maxims of which I have firsthand experience. If it was used it would be very evident in the large number of sleds to which we have access. So far, I have not had the opportunity to see one.
Please show some pics of other vintage MMG or HMG mounts that are fully blued as I would like to know what they are. I have never come across any in pursuit of restoration activities over the years of Vickers, Maxim, Schwarzlose, Breda, Hotchkiss, Japanes and other types and makes of vintage MG tripods. Somehow I have missed them. I recall seeing what appeared to be a blued Schwarzlose tripod some years ago, but it was far from conclusive. It possibly had been done for some sort of promotion of the gun or display possibly, but there wasn't much info aside from a few pics that raised more questions than they answered.
I used phosphate finish as an example of a finish that provides better adhesive to paint due to the need for a coarse surface for the best effect of the phosphate, usually provided prior to phosphate no by bead or sand blasting. I did not suggest that it was used in Maxim or other production types of early industrial production.
There is no evidence in any of the production and issue sleds that I have owned or seen that the steel had any post production treatment, such as beading, bluing, etc aside from being paint. If you have any pictures as evidence to show that this is in error, please provide it.
Vintage manuals showing the sled and 08, show a mount that is clearly painted a light color of some hue which can't be absolutely identified since the pics are black/white.
Since some bluing is an active process of creating iron oxide, it is especially sensitive to moisture. The point of polishing steel on firearms, aside from the aesthetic value, is to reduce as much as possible the texture of the metal surface to reduce the intrusion and retention of moisture and the bluing gives the surface some resistance to further oxidation. Moisture on bluing will enhance the potential for rust, which is obvious to anyone who owns blued firearms, and every effort is taken to put other preservatives onto the blued surface to protect it from rust.
Black oxide finishes, which I have done for many years, is hardly much better protection against moisture than any of the many bluing processes devised and used in the last 150 or more years. There is no blued surface on steel that left untreated with some sort moisture repellent material will not rust.
In any event, please provide pics and info on the various MG tripods with which you a familiar that were fully blued in production. All for now......
Please show some pics of other vintage MMG or HMG mounts that are fully blued as I would like to know what they are. I have never come across any in pursuit of restoration activities over the years of Vickers, Maxim, Schwarzlose, Breda, Hotchkiss, Japanes and other types and makes of vintage MG tripods. Somehow I have missed them. I recall seeing what appeared to be a blued Schwarzlose tripod some years ago, but it was far from conclusive. It possibly had been done for some sort of promotion of the gun or display possibly, but there wasn't much info aside from a few pics that raised more questions than they answered.
I used phosphate finish as an example of a finish that provides better adhesive to paint due to the need for a coarse surface for the best effect of the phosphate, usually provided prior to phosphate no by bead or sand blasting. I did not suggest that it was used in Maxim or other production types of early industrial production.
There is no evidence in any of the production and issue sleds that I have owned or seen that the steel had any post production treatment, such as beading, bluing, etc aside from being paint. If you have any pictures as evidence to show that this is in error, please provide it.
Vintage manuals showing the sled and 08, show a mount that is clearly painted a light color of some hue which can't be absolutely identified since the pics are black/white.
Since some bluing is an active process of creating iron oxide, it is especially sensitive to moisture. The point of polishing steel on firearms, aside from the aesthetic value, is to reduce as much as possible the texture of the metal surface to reduce the intrusion and retention of moisture and the bluing gives the surface some resistance to further oxidation. Moisture on bluing will enhance the potential for rust, which is obvious to anyone who owns blued firearms, and every effort is taken to put other preservatives onto the blued surface to protect it from rust.
Black oxide finishes, which I have done for many years, is hardly much better protection against moisture than any of the many bluing processes devised and used in the last 150 or more years. There is no blued surface on steel that left untreated with some sort moisture repellent material will not rust.
In any event, please provide pics and info on the various MG tripods with which you a familiar that were fully blued in production. All for now......
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Looks to me like you are seeing a dark primer. Don't look like bluing to me but pictures can be tricky.
Either way, it would make no sense for them to blue and paint on this scale. The vast amount of evidence is pretty clear. They were not blued and then painted. Even if there were some odd ones that were, you would not want to replicate that if restoring a Sled. Painting is a hell of a lot easier and more correct with the known examples out there.
Either way, it would make no sense for them to blue and paint on this scale. The vast amount of evidence is pretty clear. They were not blued and then painted. Even if there were some odd ones that were, you would not want to replicate that if restoring a Sled. Painting is a hell of a lot easier and more correct with the known examples out there.
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Just to make it clear, there is no way in hell I would blue this sled. Even if it was blued under that that gold paint which I highly doubt. I will try and strip a small section today to see what that exposes. This will determine how I will restore and paint it.
CaptMax
CaptMax
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If you have the opportunity could you post photos as you progress in your restoration of this mount?
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Kirby, I will be happy to do that. Not sure it will get done as quickly as the ferret as I have a vacation coming in the next couple weeks and then there is the Creek show to attend after that. I will post pictures of what I find and what obstacles I run into. I hope to find some original paint underneath and hope even more to find some period camouflage. I don't believe I have ever restored a tripod before other than parking my 1919 pod. I prefer original paint but there is no way I can live with this gold paint that was previously applied. This will be a new experience for me. Stay tuned for pictures as it progresses.
CaptMax
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Come on man, just get a Gold Plated Desert Eagle to mount on it!
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Only if you do it first with one of your sleds IMBLITZXT. :rofl:
Better yet, make yours a twin mount.
CaptMax
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No disrespect but maybe this topic :lol: should have it's own thread? :dunno:I did not start my thread to debate whether or not tripods were painted or blued, only to post what I recently acquired and to gain more information about it and how they were painted. I have never seen a "blued" sled, but then again I have only seen a few. :dunno:
CaptMax
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Thanks johnson LMG, while I find your information interesting I just think it should be in it's own thread for debate. I enjoy the history and information that is passed from all members of this forum and find it great that we all share what we've learned. This debate of bluing tripods deserves to continued. :thumbup:Bam.. not a problem
CaptMax
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