[MG34_Dan]

I finally had the opportunity to take out my 1928/1917A1 MG last Saturday. You can see a little of her firing on Mongo's video at 42 seconds into the video. (Links to his video are http://media.putfile.com/1-26-08-Machine-gun-shoot or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyIiFOuc7z4) I was using Greek 30-06 on cloth belts. The barrel is a used US 1917A1 barrel. The bolt, recoil spring, recoil spring rod, and barrel extension are Izzie 7.62 surplus. The lock frame is 1928 Argentina surplus. The MG fired first time, every time and ate 1200 rounds with no surprises. But, the cyclic rate seemed very fast.
I took her out again yesterday and ran another 500 rounds of Greek 30-06 through her, but this time I was using 7.62 Izzie links. Again there were no issues except for the rate of fire, which was faster on links compared to belts. I was shooting with Dolf Goldsmith and he said it was firing well over 700 rpm and it should be firing at about 550 rpm. He thought the problem was with the Izzie recoil spring that was made for 7.62 NATO and not 30-06. Does anyone know how I can slow down the cyclic rate?

 

[Lucky#13]

Get a U.S. Spring. Easier said than done, I know. Drop me an e-mail or PM here and I'll see if I can help you out. Not sure how much difference that will make, though.

 

[TiredIron]

Rate of Fire issues

It sound to me like your Baby is running great....a little fast but great. The Military I thought said the rate of fire was 600rpm. It would be interesting to actually measure the rate of fire to make sure your not just thinking it sounds to fast. The few things I can think of that can certainly affect the rate of fire are,
a. If you tighten up the headspace a little it will slow down.
b. I don't know if your sealing the barrel with rope/cord or o-rings but if you
tighten up the seal and create a little more friction you can slow it down.
c. I didn't know the Israeli's changed the recoil spring rate on their 7.62
conversions, I guess that could have an effect....as could a stiffer spring
in the lock on the accellerator. You might try a lock out of an 30.06
weapon.
d. There is always a possibilty the ammo itself is playing a part in this.

TiredIron

 

[CaliBoundAR15]

Other than eating you completely out of ammo, I don't see the downside here!

 

[TiredIron]

Rate of Fire....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-AZez4iPJA

Listen to the rate of fire on this other Browning being fired and compare it to yours on Mongo's Video....if there is a difference...I can't hear it. If you really have to slow it down....I would start by packing the front seal a little tighter.
If you really want to slow it down to 450-500, have someone turn you down a heavy barrel from an a "A4" profile to about 10-12% more weight...it will start to sound more like a BAR.
Personally....I think its running fine..."Its a beautiful thing...sniff".
TiredIron

 

[MG34_Dan]

I don't think the 30-06 Greek ammo is an issue.

When shooting 30-06 Greek in my Vickers, I must use the US Vickers muzzle booster. My Vickers will not cycle when using the British muzzle booster. The US booster sits closer to the barrel cup than does the British booster thus giving the US booster gives more "boost" than the British booster. When shooting Romanian 8mm in my Vickers I don't use any booster at all. The Greek bullet weighs 150gns and the Romanian bullet weight is 152gns. For all intents they are the same. That tells me the recoil energy of Greek 30-06 is much less than Romanian 8mm.

 

[TiredIron]

Rate of Fire....

I've listened to both videos now about 10-12 times....and I have to agreed yours does sound about 10% faster....but as long as its not hammering the backplate....or eating you out house and home (which I know it is...grin )
...enjoy it. Most people have issues of the other type where its running sluggish or they're have stoppages. Again...it would be nice to use a Rate of Fire
electronic counter and swap a few of the components out. Its a tribute to the Browning design that you can build a hybrid like this and it runs so well. God bless John M.

TiredIron

 

[jmann]

Dan,
I watched the video and the high rate of fire coupled with the way the gun is spitting water from between the jacket and muzzle gland tells me it does not have enough packing. It is one thing for the gun to leak between the barrel and muzzle gland, but it appears yours is leaking between the jacket threads and the muzzle gland. That means there is little or no friction on the packing of the barrel and believe me, as I have shot one without any water or packing in it, it will run like a raped ape when the packing is not making contact. Repack the front and back of the gun and get it to where it can sit for 5 min without a drip, then see what your rof is. I use carbon coated carbon string from mcmaster carr. Unwinding it to single strand and coating liberally with a good hi temp waterproof grease. I use krytox grease also available from mmc. It aint cheap, but it works and a 2oz tube will last for years. That rof is to high in my opinion and will eventually batter your backplate slots out of spec. This will cause the backplate to have some slop when it is dropped into the gun. Probably wouldnt hurt to recheck your headspace as well just to be on the safe side. If you are using the argentine lockframe with the spring loaded plunger, make sure the plunger has been recontoured to fit the gi notches in the barrel. In other words make sure the plunger is locking positively into the notch in the barrel. Colt nothces were wider than uncle sams and the plunger needs to be removed and tapered to correctly fit the notch if it hasnt been already.
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[ohioblacksheep]

Dan,

If the above Ideas don't work here's a thought for you. Get an A4 barrel and get it turned to the 1 1/8 1917 dia. and muzzle to fit the water cooled.. That will leave a lot more weight on the barrel to help slow it down..

An A4 is 8 lb. and a 1917 barrel is between 2 3/4 and 3 lb.....Some where inbetween might be a weight that will help slow it down...Lou

 

[MG34_Dan]

What are the part numbers?

John;

Thank you for the information. Do you have the McMaster-Carr part numbers? I don't want to order the wrong stuff.

My first thought was also to use a turned down 1919 barrel. But then I wondered why I should when a 1917 Browning MG was designed to use thin barrels. Smarter men than I must have encountered this situation before and they must have solved it.

It was a shame that Mongo did not show the right side of my MG on your tripod. The whole setup looks spectacular, especially with the nice tripod green paint, polished brass, fire blued pins, and the MG with blued water jacked, blued receiver, polished brass, and Colt crest with commercial markings! I am also surprised that nobody mentioned my use of a commercial Colt steam chest. On Saturday, I had two dealers who wanted to know who did the receiver engraving and if you would restore their 1928 tripods. On Wednesday I another dealer ask me the same questions.

 

[jmann]

Dan,
Sorry for the delay, I have been out of pocket for a few days.
I use mcmaster car pn 97675k6 for the front. I dont unwind it. I cut several pieces that will wrap around the barrel and fit into the recess in the front endcap, butting the ends together. Just be sure to stagger your butt joints like the gas rings on an m-16.
For the rear I use 9457k6. I unwind it into long single strands and wrap 1 strand around continously until I have it packed the way I want to, tapping it into the grove with a brass hammer as I go then coating liberally with grease. Grease is 10195k27. In all actuality the same packing I unwind for the back would probably work for the front in its original state before it is unwound, but I bought an assortment of about 6 types of this stuff and when I found a combination that worked well, thats what I stuck with. Just get the small rolls as they will last for a lot of shoots.
As for tripods, I am glad you like it. That is the sexiest tripod there is for the 1917 in my opinion. As for restoring them, I would probably do some if they wanted them bad enough, but I have found that most people want theirs restored like yours, until the find out what it costs. I would charge $600 plus any parts it took to restore a 28 tripod like yours is done. That usually turns off most folks as all they really want to pay for is a blast and spray restoration, which is worth about 50 bucks. It takes about 30 hours of labor and a lot of equipment to make these things look like your tripod does.
If you want to try some of the packing, I can mail you some. Just e-mail me where you want it to go and I will mail you some to see if you like it.
John

 

[MG34_Dan]

Thanks for the information.

John;

I will pass your pricing and contact information to the dealers who asked for it.

 

[Mongo]

Dan you should have asked, I can put together a little vid with the right side plate engraving shown. (think there was some footage) I can also get an accurate ROF by looking at the audio spikes in the video editor and time between them.

The vid was 4 minutes long already so I could not use all the footage we got of your gun or it would not have fit on youtube/putfile.

 

[Mongo]

thinking of other solutions, if someone has a "real" 30.06 recoil spring they could get Wolf Springs to duplicate it. Wolf would most likely see the market and offer them for sale like they do for several other MG springs.

 

[loboslanding]

That's a great video. The water-cooled did sound a tad faster than the 1919 in the vid.

Here's a couple of suggestions:

Using a stop watch, run the gun for ten seconds and then count the spent rounds and then multiply by 6 and that will give you ROF.

If you are concerned then augment the Izzy driving rod spring. I think there is still room in the bolt to compress more spring so take a second spring and keep cutting and compressing it into the driving rod alley butted against the full length one until you've got it packed almost full. If it runs too slow then start cutting loops 'til you're happy by using the stop watch to get the ROF you want.

Another thing you can do is use a pull scale and measure how much force it takes to cycle the bolt and then compare that to someone else that has a 1917A1 or '28 fa.

 

[Lucky#13]

thinking of other solutions, if someone has a "real" 30.06 recoil spring they could get Wolf Springs to duplicate it. Wolf would most likely see the market and offer them for sale like they do for several other MG springs.

Actually, there is no shortage of NOS USGI springs on the market. I have never been clear on whether the Israelis even changed out the spring. I know the U.S. did in the 20s or 30s, going from (I think) 18 to 14 lbs.

Is there any interest in these? I might be able to find some. I had a source last year. I have sent one to MG34_Dan, so we should know soon if it makes a difference. Be sure to change only one thing at a time, so you can be sure of what the result of any individual alteration really is.