[Roc Rat]

Whew,,, its good to be back. I lost internet on saturday and just got it back this morning. I've had a question burning since then,, I went to my company's annual safety meeting last friday in NH. Drove down on thursday to avoid a midnight wake up call at home, and also to make my yearly visit to Mecca,,, Reiley's Guns in Hookset NH. its where I got my M1a, and my Remington 700,,, along with tons of re-loading supplies and other sundry items over the last few years. Have been thinking of selling one of my 1919s, so while waiting for a price, I was looking thru their stock. I looked over the C&R guns,,, lots,, and then I see in the rack,, like a shining beacon, four 45-70's standing at attention. I've seen these in Caballas catalog, but had never handled one before. They had a trapdoor Springfield and three falling blocks up to the biggie,, the octagonal barrel had to be close to 36" long. Falling block with hammer. They all were Pedersoli replicas, and were quite nice. My question is this,,, do these have any sort of legitimate place in a quasi-modern rifle collection? I know these were "Buffalo" guns,, I talked to a guy that knows someone who has one and shoots great distance with it.
How is the kick,, I would probably do all the re-loading for it,,, (I saw the price of factory ammo)
Outside of the occasional long range use and the admiration value,, do these have a place,, or are they an obsolete rifle from the past?

 

[Armorer]

Do they have a place in a quisi-modern rifle collection? Who cares redefine your collection. If you like it try it. A Springfield trap door certainly would fit in a U.S. military rifle collection but probably not modern rifle collection. Originals are getting hard to find however. How is the kick? depends on how stiff they are loaded. My 1873 trapdoor rifle didn't seem to kick all that bad but the Carbine is another matter. I got to fire a 50-70 Sharps Carbine(converted from percussion) one time. That had quite a kick also. Remember they have a heavy slug but less than half the velocity of a modern .30 cal. The heavy barrel of the buffalo guns would take up a lot of the recoil also. As I recall none of them seem to have the recoil of lets say an 03 Springfield but it's been a while since I fired one. Like I said it depends on the load and bullet weight. Yes the factory ammo is right up there with the expensive magnums from what I have seen. They didn't use to be. What place do they have? They are fun to shoot and you may even want to try to hunt with one. They may not be the best home defense gun however.

 

[sweetwine]

Collection? I have a little from diffrent times civil war to current. I have two Sharps 1874 45-70. One is a infantry rifle other is a Buffalo Gun. Both shoot great use 500 + grain cast bullets and smokless powder most time. Black powder shoots well too but has more recoil. Check the buttplates before you buy, curved ones hurt bad, shotgun type are the best. I get 1 1/2"to 3" groups at 100 yards, hope to try longer ranges this year and see how they do. This is the round that tamed the old west. Good luck let us know what you come home with.

 

[brassmagnet]

Roc-Rat - go for it!

I have 2 original trapdoors, one 1884 model, and one 1888 spike-bayonet model. I also have one Pedersoli 1873 copy, and a Uberti Sharps carbine, and a cutdown Trapdoor carbine. All in 45-70. The TD rifles have very little recoil as they sport 32+ inch barrels. They shoot the lighter pressure 405 grain or 500 grain black powder loads made for the early rifles, as Trapdoors are not inherently strong actions. There is also smokeless ammo available at lower pressures if you don't like the black powder mess and cleaning requirements.

I shoot even lighter 45/50 loads in my TD carbine, which I'm pretty sure the army did too back in the 1800's, after problems with recoil and jamming when using the regular 45/70 loads in the carbines. In fact, I've read stories of how they found some jammed rifles at the little bighorn sight, but it is my understanding they used copper cases originally and they had a tendancy to stick a lot when the chambers got hot from sustained firing, as would have been the case there I'm sure. Don't know if it's true, but interesting readin.

The Sharps carbine is a heavier barrel and stronger action, so slightly higher pressures may be OK, but I stick with the low stuff. Besides, half the fun of these is the smoke and nostalgia of the old west. I also have a lever action Model 1876 Winchester Carbine (copy) in 45/60 and one in 50/95 with an 28" barrel. Haven't fired them yet as the 50/95 ammo is backordered. Heavy guns too, so recoil should be moderate.

Sorry for the long post - I just thought I'd pass along the little info I had one these 45/70 guns. Anyhow - bottom line is - if you like shooting, these definately are fun, and a hoot to shoot!

 

[174th gunner]

there is an additonal hunting season for hunters with primitave weapons ,ie black powder and 1800s cartarages 45-70 and the like.i'd say that might catch on id the demon ctats do'nt outlaw guns all together!

 

[Roc Rat]

I'll be back down there in a couple of weeks,, taking at least one of my 1919's with me. May be bringin one of the 45-70 home. If I take one set up as an A6, I'd probably get more than enough to get the gun, dies, brass and bullets.

What would be a good all around bullet weight to statr with,, for target and possible hunting?

Brass,, no apology needed for a long post from you,,, like you say,, useful posts??,,, LOTS!!!!

 

[brassmagnet]

If loading black powder or a substitute I'd stay with the traditional 405gr. or 500 gr. bullets. Lots of load data available on those. These are "lob" bullets" - high trajectory at long distances, say over 200 yards. Be sure and use a lube like SP with BP loads - it's softer and lubes better at the lower velocities...helps reduce fouling and residue buildup...JMHO

 

[XXX birchwoodmanor]

45/70 fun guns to shoot

next to my machine guns i enjoy all of my 45/70 guns the most
I have a rolling block and traodoor as well as a sharps I only use black powder in my cases, many are very old baloon head brass cases but as long as you use black powder at the original powder levals of 70 grains as measured in a black powder mesure cup it would be safe. I also cast my own 500 grain soft lead bullets the standard modern commercial 45/70 runds as sold by Remingtom are low Powered so they can be used in trapdoors as well as rolling blocks . The rolling block is a stronger action then trap door, the originals are gettig too valuable to shoot, but I still do. the smoke and flash is the best part of shooting these old smoke poles get one! they are a real blast to shoot. I would not soot any hot loads in the original guns also most reloading books offer hot loads for the once common Siameese mausers that were re chambered in 45/70 they are now very hard too get and as a bolt action the hotter rounds were ok to use but, never! load a hot smokeless powder round for the old guns,or the modern reproes could be very bad for your and your guns health ! keep it low and have fun. The recoil is more of a push then a hard felt recoil .The name 45/70 denotes a 45 caliber round and 70 grains of powder also often listed as 45/70/500 or 45/70 /450 for the weight of the round
my two cents
Harold Gelchinsky
Birchwood Manor Ordanance












[

 

[Belt driven]

I don't have a trapdoor, but rather a Marlin 1895 cowboy in the long octagon barrel. Apples and oranges however the 45/70 as a cartridge is something else. Pay sharp attention to yoru reloading manuals if you choose to reload. That cartridge typically has three different sets of tables. One for blackpowder pressure classes, one for modern lever guns, and one for Ruger No 1's and other ultra strong actions. If you load for BP pressures with smokeless do some research on dacron or other fillers for the case as the powder will move away from the primer and not ignight fully, leaving a slug in the barrel about an inch into the bore. I learned the hard way. Hope you don't. I think Trailboss is a bulk smokeless that'll solve some of that but I have not used it to know.

Having shot the Marlin with warm reloads pushing a 405 grain bullet I can now say my 1970's era Weatherby Vanguard in 30-06 has mild recoil. With BP pressure loads the Marlin is a total riot as recoil is much more pleasant.

At first brush the 45/70 seems outclassed by more modern loads until you read the testimonials on Randy Garrett's web site.

So you have two issues here, one is the nostalgia of the rifle, and the other is the mystique of the cartridge. Don't be surprised if one or the other doesn't spur you into a new arena that'll call for a bigger gun safe.

 

[patriotpa]

Go for the Sharps. I have an 1874 Long Range Express, and it's stronger than the trapdoor, plus, it's accurate as blazes!!!! IMNSHO, the Sharps is the pinnacle of BPCR design.

 

[cpobr]

Take a look at the Winchester 1886 in 45.70, either carbine or long rifle. I have and shoot a take down version of the Winchester 1886 rifle, use factory & reloads, easy to clean, transport & store. A neat blaster which is hunting accurate with iron sights. Recoil is less than .308

 

[brassmagnet]

I toyed with the idea of getting a nice Sharps rifle, but geeeez they are heavy. Somewhere in the 12-13lb area are't they? Who the heck wants to shoulder one of those babies! I have a Sharps carbine, and that outweighs my trapdoor carbine by a couple of pounds.


Oh heck - make it easy on yourself - get one of each!

 

[Commander47]

I can't imagine not having a trapdoor Springfield. This is a legendary rifle.

I have a model 1873 that is complete and beautiful, complete with bayonette, frog and sling.

You may remember that Custers Troops were fielding the Trapdoor, and in a famous picture, Geronimo carried a trapdoor carbine he got off a cavalry trooper. This rifle recently sold for 100,000 at an auction.

The beauty of the Springfield is that these rifles are functional old guns. You can have a wall hanger if you want, but I shoot mine. It is accurate and fun to shoot.

The following is a trooper of the Spanish American war with his model 1873.

All you really have to be careful of is not using any hot reloaded ammo or any such thing. It takes a bit of getting used to to purchase new 45-70 ammo and realize the cartridge is only about 1/3 full.


I would not hesitate to take it deer hunting. But the dang thing is so long and heavy I'd probably wear out at my age now humping it.

I may be a romantic old fool, but I like the thought that my rifle may have been involved in some of these actions. You know...if this thing could talk.

Here is a final picture of some Spanish American War troopers kicking back with their trapdoors stacked. You can see the bayonettes and belts in this pic.

 

[Roc Rat]

The rifle I was really liking was the 1874 Sharps Deluxe Rifle http://www.emf-company.com/pedersoli-rifles-carbines.htm,, the top one on the Pedersoli page.
The shop had a $1100 price tag on it. I know it is not the most practical rifle going, but as most of you are saying,,, it the nostalga thing. I'm also trying to up grade my collection,, I have three 1919's,,, about two too many. Nice to have the guns pay for themselves. Plus if I keep my 30 06, I have all my 7.62x51 for my mag fed guns.
Damn,,, I love the falling block,, but I like the trapdoor too

 

[tomcat]

I have a Browning 1885 Winchester BPCR in 45-70. It is an awesome gun to shoot. Not much recoil with all the weight. It has the vernier tang sight and globe front with the level. Also has a half round half hex barrel. I have always loaded smokeless with 305 gr. cast bullets. Someday I am going to try black powder when I have the time to give it a thorough cleaning.

 

[Poverty Ridge]

My Opinion

I have the EMF (I think it is in the safe at the other place) Sharps with the Creedmore tang sights. Several things to watch out for:

1. they had a safety bar on the hammer ---- Piece of junk get rid of it
2. get some shooting sticks really helps hold it steady
3. BIG BUCKS FOR AMMO uses lots of powder to push that little tiny bullet out the barrel ROFLMAO
4. Forget about tracking anything you shoot--- It will be right where you hit it. Trust Me !!!!!!!
5. GET IT!!!!!!!! They are more fun than you should be allowed to have with your clothes on. Not as much fun as a suppressed full auto-- just as much if not more than a 1919.
6. As for reloads---- See what that smokepole likes try different loads, powders and of course bullet weights.

 

[mikey250r]

45/70 Marlin 1895

When I go shooting with the AR15.com guys at the Buffalo Pit in Ottawa Illinois Ill bring the Marlin. They all (and me too) have futureistic looking rifles and pistols. They DO NOT look down on the Buffalo Gun. Everyone that has gone to an AR15.com BLASTFEST (Illinois) knows what a full load 45/70 sounds like - LOUD!!!

 

[brassmagnet]

The rifle I was really liking was the 1874 Sharps Deluxe Rifle http://www.emf-company.com/pedersoli-rifles-carbines.htm,, the top one on the Pedersoli page.............Damn,,, I love the falling block,, but I like the trapdoor too

It is my understanding that Pedersoli is right at the top of the list as far as quality Sharps repro's, and almost everyone recommends them over other brands of repro's. I did some research on some other forums, and this is the one that got almost all the votes for 1st choice if buying a repro Sharps. You will surely enjoy it if you go that route!

 

[gadgeteer]

Hot 45-70

Take a look at this site. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp
You will be amazed at what has been taken with the 45-70 ( in modern arms).

 

[Commander47]

Take a look at this site. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp
You will be amazed at what has been taken with the 45-70 ( in modern arms).

Do not fire any of that ammo above in an original trapdoor. Any of the new guns can probably handle it fine.

this is by Chuck Hawk and I quote it here.

The traditional .45-70 factory load is a 405 grain bullet (BC .214, SD .272) at a MV of 1330 fps, and a ME of 1590 ft. lbs. This is a very moderate load that kills well because of the penetration of its big, heavy bullet. It has been used on all North American game, but today should be restricted to use at close range.

In an attempt to improve the low pressure .45-70 load, the factories have been loading a 300 grain JHP bullet (BC .171, SD .204) at around 1,810 fps. At that velocity, according to Remington figures, the ME is 2182 ft. lbs.

The trajectory of this load allows a scoped rifle to be sighted as follows: +3" at 82 yards, +2.7" at 100 yards, -3" at 162 yards, and -10.2" at 200 yards. This makes the 45-70 about a 162 yard rifle for use on deer size game.

Handloaders with modern Marlin lever action rifles have pioneered the use of high pressure (+P) .45-70 loads, as the modern Marlin 1895 action is much stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield action or reproductions there of. Lever action rifles are limited to bullets weighing about 400 grains, as heavier (and thus longer) bullets will not feed through their actions.

The owners of modern single shot rifles, such as the Ruger No. 1 and Browning 1885 High Wall, can safely take the pressure limit even higher, and can use 500 grain bullets. The result is loads that tread on the heels of some African safari cartridges.

The handloader will normally load bullets of 300, 350, 400 and 500 grains, although other bullet weights in the same general ballpark are available. I have had some experience reloading the .45-70 with all of the above bullets, and I have found that IMR 3031, a traditional powder choice for the cartridge, gives excellent performance with all bullet weights.

According to the sixth edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 40.9 grains of IMR 3031 powder can drive a Hornady 300 grain JHP bullet to a MV of 1300 fps, and 52.0 grains of IMR 3031 can drive the same bullet to a MV of 1800 fps. This essentially duplicates the factory loads, and does not exceed the SAAMI specified MAP. These and the Hornady loads to follow used Winchester brass and Federal 210 primers.

The second level of loads are for modern Marlin 1895 lever action rifles. In these loads pressures can run up to 40,000 cup. These reloads can drive a Hornady 350 grain bullet to a MV of 1400 fps with 45.2 grains of IMR 3031 powder, and a MV of 1900 fps in front of 56.1 grains of IMR 3031. These velocities were taken in the 22" barrel of a Marlin 1895 rifle. According to the Hornady Handbook, Sixth Edition, these loads are adequate for ". . . any North American game at moderate range."

The final selection of .45-70 reloads are for strong bolt action or single shot rifles that can take pressures running up to 50,000 cup. In such rifles 55.4 grains of IMR 3031 can give the Hornady 350 grain bullets a MV of 2000 fps, and 59.6 grains a MV of 2200 fps. These loads were chronographed in the 22" barrel of a Ruger No.1 rifle.

For the utmost in penetration on very large animals, the 500 grain Hornady RN or FMJ-RN bullets on top of 44.1 grains of IMR 3031 results in a MV of 1500 fps, and a maximum load of 53.1 grains of IMR 3031 can drive these 500 grain bullets to a MV of 1800 fps. Again, these high pressure loads were tested from the 22" barrel of a Ruger No. 1 rifle.

I can tell you from experience that these heavy loads kick like the devil, but they make the .45-70 a serious "stopping" caliber.

Note: A full length article about the .45-70 Government can be found on the Rifle Cartridge Page.