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The Bush administration's position in the case before the Supreme Court on the constitutionality of the District of Columbia's ban on handguns has created an unexpected and serious backlash in conservative circles, disappointing gun enthusiasts and creating implications for the presidential campaign.

The government's brief, filed by U.S. Solicitor General Paul D. Clement just hours before the court's deadline Jan. 11, endorses the view that the Second Amendment conveys an individual right to gun ownership, a finding long sought by gun rights activists.

But it also said an appeals court used the wrong standard when it struck down the District's ban on private handgun ownership, and it urged the Supreme Court to return the case to the lower court for review.

If the justices accept that advice when they hear the case in the spring, it could mean additional years of litigation over the controversial Second Amendment and could undo a ruling that was a seminal victory for gun rights enthusiasts.

Some were livid. One conservative Web site said the administration had "blundered in catastrophic fashion," and another turned Clement, usually a pinup for conservative legal scholars, into a digital dartboard. Rep. Eric Cantor (Va.), the Republicans' chief deputy whip, called the brief "just outrageous," and Republican presidential candidate and former senator Fred D. Thompson (Tenn.) accused the Justice Department of "overlawyering" the issue.

David B. Kopel, an associate policy analyst at the libertarian Cato Institute, said that President Bush was elected in part because of the passion of gun rights activists and that "the citizen activists would never have spent all those hours volunteering for a candidate whose position on the constitutionality of a handgun ban was 'maybe.' "

On the other side, Sanford Levinson, a liberal constitutional scholar at the University of Texas who believes that the Second Amendment protects individual rights, called the administration's position "a gift to the Democratic Party" and urged his party's presidential candidates to embrace it.

The view that the amendment guarantees gun ownership subject to reasonable government restrictions is one that most voters would endorse, Levinson said. In a debate last week in Nevada, all three major Democratic candidates pledged their fealty to the Second Amendment -- "People have a right to bear arms," Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) said -- although none mentioned the District's handgun ban.

That the Bush Justice Department has staked out a position on the Second Amendment that Democrats could be comfortable with is too much for gun enthusiasts, Kopel said.

More neutral observers say the controversy over the Justice Department's view that the case should be sent back for additional review obscures the brief's full-throated support for the proposition that the Second Amendment provides for an individual right for gun ownership. It is the central issue in the case and a question that the court has never squarely addressed.

The D.C. appeals court became the first in the nation to strike down a gun control ordinance based on an individual rights view. All the other appeals courts that had reviewed the question, save one, said the amendment provides only a "collective" or civic right to gun ownership, related to its reference to militias.

Orin Kerr, a George Washington University law professor who closely follows the court, said the significance of Clement's argument becomes clearer when compared with the friend-of-the-court brief filed by former attorney general Janet Reno and other past Justice officials.

"The Department prosecutes thousands of defendants for firearms violations every year," the brief said. "In opposing Second Amendment challenges to those prosecutions, the government contended for more than 60 years that the Second Amendment did not protect an individual right to keep and bear arms for purposes unrelated to participation in a well-regulated militia."

Soon after Bush took office, then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft changed the department's official view to recognize individual rights. But the department until now had not faced a situation in which an appeals court used such a right to strike a gun-control measure.

That is when, Levinson speculates, the "sober second thoughts of practicing lawyers" took over.

Clement plays dual roles -- to represent the position of the Bush administration before the court but also to defend the laws passed by Congress. His brief said federal gun-control laws could be endangered by the decision that struck D.C.'s law.

The appeals court decision, written by one of the leaders of the conservative legal movement, Senior Circuit Judge Laurence H. Silberman, said that "arms" referred to in the amendment include handguns, and thus the District's ban on private possession of them is unconstitutional.

But Clement's brief said such a "categorical" rule is too broad.

"If adopted by this court, such an analysis could cast doubt on the constitutionality of existing federal legislation prohibiting the possession of certain firearms, including machineguns," he wrote.

Clement said the District's ban on handguns, the strictest in the country, may well be unconstitutional. But it should be subjected to "heightened judicial scrutiny," rather than categorically dismissed, he said.

Those who favor the appeals court's decision said the Supreme Court could rule that the District's ban fails even that test, rather than following Clement's prescription of sending it back to lower courts. Whatever decision reached there would probably result in another trip back to the justices.

But Clement said the court's finding of an individual right and an appropriate standard of review "will be a substantial constitutional undertaking." There would be "virtue," his brief said, in sending the case back to the lower courts and "permitting Second Amendment doctrine to develop in an incremental and prudent fashion."

The court is free to ignore the solicitor general's advice, but his opinion usually carries weight with the justices.

Robert Barnes
The Washington Post
 

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Thanks for posting that, alamosaddles! You know, this is the FIRST article I have seen that correctly lays out exactly what the OSG's brief is trying to do. That is, to stop the categorical application of the word "arms" in the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. They are willing to sacrifice the rights of D.C. residents in order to protect their hold over machine guns. It shows the Administration fears what we most hope for: the potential overturn or, at least, weakening of the 1934 NFA and the 1986 ban. I read the brief as soon as this came out and it is obvious that the Administration wants to preserve the government's authority to ban any category of firearm they want.

To think that it took the liberal Washington Post point out the full story here. That's more than the NRA has been willing to do. What the OSG says is that it's okay to ban handguns from civilian possession, so long as we can have a shotgun or rifle in our homes. That's the whole argument, boiled down to the essence. All the pro individual rights language in that brief is a smokescreen. :mad:
 

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the controversial Second Amendment
Yeah, that says it all. The right of the people to defend themselves is controversial. :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for posting that, alamosaddles! It shows the Administration fears what we most hope for: the potential overturn or, at least, weakening of the 1934 NFA and the 1986 ban.

To me, it's a bullshit argument. After all, even as the post and other media talk about this, there is no ban on machine guns. There is only a ban on production of new machine guns for civilian sales, but there is no actual ban on machine guns. The governments argument that upholding the second would threaten the governments ability to "ban" machine guns is erroneous at best, and I've yet to see any major publication point this simple but obvious fact out.
 

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To me, it's a bullshit argument. After all, even as the post and other media talk about this, there is no ban on machine guns. There is only a ban on production of new machine guns for civilian sales, but there is no actual ban on machine guns. The governments argument that upholding the second would threaten the governments ability to "ban" machine guns is erroneous at best, and I've yet to see any major publication point this simple but obvious fact out.
Yes, that's another point no one writing about this has pointed out. Makes you wonder if the OSG even knows that there are such things as legal MGs. :rolleyes: That reference to the banning of MGs makes you wonder, don't it? :mad:
 

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Yes, that's another point no one writing about this has pointed out. Makes you wonder if the OSG even knows that there are such things as legal MGs. :rolleyes: That reference to the banning of MGs makes you wonder, don't it? :mad:
They keep perpetrating the myth that suppresors and mg's are illegal, and that is one of the reasons why alot of uneducated people "fear" the overturning of the federal "ban" on mg's, because then "ordinary" citizens would be able to get them. I wonder what the general public would say, or think, if they knew that they themselves can pay the tax and buy a real firebreathing mg.......would it be shock and disbelief, or would they be bothered that they have been misled all of this time?
 

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In my limited experience, more shock and disbelief... mostly gun owners and dealers too that are lead to believe all such things are illegal. Of course they know better after I'm done w/them. :D

Some even break into "why would anyone need that"? (which I find especially disheartening coming from gun owners who of all people should know and understand what it feels like to be on the wrong end of that statement) Then I have to soap box about the 2A having nothing to do w/goose guns, but repelling foreign invasions and the population being able to defend themselves from the government. No idea if I ever win any hearts or minds, but at least I make the attempt.
 

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It is NOT about "need", the fact is you want it, and it's legal to have it, that's all they NEED to know. ;)


Jeez, I'm still battling the ignorant who think because the domestic AW ban-922(v) is dead, they can register and build MGs. What I tell them is the antis are just as confused as most gunowners, AWs are in fact REAL MGs, the govt deliberately called semi-autos "AWs" to confuse public. Those that care to learn, I go into details of 922(o) so they can pass it on.
 

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militia ?

So what does it take to become a recognized militia, every one of the gun grabbers will agree that it's OK for the military to have these guns but there was no standing military when the declaration was written, so how do you join a militia unit and bypass all the gungrabber laws for the past 80 years, who says what is a militia unit, if you are supporting the constitution and willing to lay your life down to protect this country wouldn't that constitute a militia, I'm sure there is a revaloutinary war discription of what constitutes a militia, I'm sure you would go to jail for trying this defense but there should be some kind of loophole.
 

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47lincsled,

IIRC, I think this was attempted in NC or SC several yrs ago, defendants were caught with several unregistered MGs, they are all felons now, court determined it was not "state-sponsored/recognized" militia or some BS like that.

Fact is, every able-bodied man OR woman, willing to lay down their life to defend this nation is considered militia, whether the state recognizes or not, that is the original intent, you don't have to be a lawyer to figure out the "interpretation" of militia from late 1700s.

If our govt wants to play games, how about this, I wonder if they ever thought about CCWs being "organized militia", it has to be "state-sponsored and recognized", afterall, we have permits from the state in which we reside. In TN for example, it is legal to carry a pistol-type registered MG with CCW, we looked it up. ;)
 

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Machine guns

, mine, were [/B]not involved in the four local bank robberies; felons and militant minorities were.. The logic gets fuzzy here,troops, as" guns are evil, but perps are not"??? What am I missing? Or is it the Regulators / Bureaucrats/ Big Government Types want increasing control and to increase their power and not real crime solutions???? :mad: :mad: :mad: Overbore
 

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Overbore,

A firearm is only a tool, a tool that can be used to overthrow corrupt govt, our ancestors mentioned this specifically in the Bill Of Rights.

Things I know for a fact, seen it firsthand dozens of times in the last decade, the corrupt LE/Govt types are more than happy to take away tools of responsible citizens, nevermind the felon who has them as it furthers the anti-gun agenda, they don't eat their own.
 

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Overbore,

A firearm is only a tool, a tool that can be used to overthrow corrupt govt, our ancestors mentioned this specifically in the Bill Of Rights.

Things I know for a fact, seen it firsthand dozens of times in the last decade, the corrupt LE/Govt types are more than happy to take away tools of responsible citizens, nevermind the felon who has them as it furthers the anti-gun agenda, they don't eat their own.
You are absolutely correct. The government powers have NO real incentive to stop crime beyond a certain point. The notion that we can better defend our families and property ourselves than they can is a danger to their authority. The less we rely on them to protect us, the more their jobs are in jeopardy. They don't like that.

I think the "war on drugs" is a classic example of this. There is a whole industry that is solidly entrenched in fighting the "war". All the MONEY that comes in to support this, including the 100s of millions that government agencies make on property seizures. Imagine how many jobs would go down the drain if there were no longer a need for all this? Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of legalizing drugs, nor is this an anti-LEO rant. It's just a statment of fact.

The more individuals can rely on themselves and their neighbors to take care of their families and property, the less need for overprotective gubment folk to have those powerful jobs. And if they REALLY got most of the criminals off the streets- and KEPT them off- we'd be better off, but they would feel the pinch. It's not in their interest to no longer be "needed".
 
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