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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
"THIS GHOST GUN IS MINE. BUT THERE WILL BE MANY LIKE IT."

"The DefDist shop is run by Defense Distributed, a pending 501(c)(3) nonprofit in Austin, TX" !?

After reading the article in Wired Magazine regarding the Ghost Gunner CNC from Defense Distributed, (http://www.wired.com/2015/06/i-made-an-untraceable-ar-15-ghost-gun/) I'm wondering whether anyone here has any first or second-hand experience with it. From this article, making an unserialized lower for the AR-15 seems rather easy -- all one needs is the $999 (now $1500) machine, a parts set for the rest of the firearm and an 80% piece of 7075 aluminum alloy to complete.

As the author shows, 3-D Printing or the Drill Press Method can be less than satisfactory for the neophyte, but the Ghost Gunner Method seems more of an 'out-the-door-of-the-basement' method. Is this realistic? Have there been any ATF updates or changes?

Other than the statements, ".... buying or selling a [n unserialized] ghost gun is illegal, but making one remains kosher under US gun control laws," AND "Selling that untraceable gun body is illegal, but no law prevents you from making one," the article seems accurate and straightforward. I'm not sure about these two statements, at least within state lines.


Carry On!
Gary
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BeltFed GURU
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Well you could get 80%`s but they have been selling like hot cakes even the Polymer ones are out of stock !!!

Why spend $1500 on a CNC machine when they can be completed with a drill press ,a router and a hand drill or a milling machine ,it ain`t rocket science !! I could finish an AR 80% with nothing more than a hammer ,wood chisel ,bow drill and file, Kyber pass style :tongue: !!!

Now here is what will get you into trouble using the $1500 CNC to make more than one or two any more and by ATF`s regulations you are a defacto un-licensed Manufacturer and that they will Not stand for it , ponder that for a little while :confused: !!! Now it would be economic if you get a 07/02 FFL then you would be a licensed manufacturer , you would have to Maker , serial and record all made and who they are sold to . Making traceable receiver`s legally !!!

As it is ATF regs allow a non felon/restraining order encumbered person to make a bolt or semi firearm that does Not fall into the NFA classification of MG`s ,AOW`s or DD`s with completely legally standing requiring no serial numbers what so ever !! But like many here if you engrave/mark your name ,state ,county and a serial number it is no longer untraceable and can be sold as members here have with their home builds . Just do not do more than 1 or 2 or they will get around to You and take you for unlicensed Manufacturing !!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I do appreciate the comments and opinions above and am trying to not be churlish. My questioning is just going in a different direction. As I read it, one could rent the machine to someone legally for, say $250, and they use it in the basement to make an unserialized lower. They do all the purchasing of the unfinished receiver, ("80%" lower) upper receiver, trigger, hammer, grip, stock, magazine, et cetera, and all the work to complete the firearm, all done legally. One question, then, as we frequently have been asked by newbies and others, and answered here on the board with 1919 builds, can one sell that completed "firearm"? As I read the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), it permits an unlicensed individual to make an unserialized firearm for personal use, but not for sale or distribution. However, the law does not explicitly preclude an unlicensed person from later selling, giving away, or otherwise transferring a homemade firearm to another person as long as it was originally intended for personal use. A gun explicitly made for personal use can be sold or transferred in the same way a factory-made firearm of that same class can be sold or transferred. The ATF suggests all homemade firearms be marked with a serial number as a safeguard in the event the firearm is lost or stolen, but requires it if the gun is otherwise lawfully transferred in the future

As the article shows, many folks without the least machining knowledge and even with the more rudimentary machine tools (floor mount drill press, drill press vise, end-mill and drill bits, et cetera) cannot properly and easily machine an AR lower to finish the firearm. This article is about what are the ways it can be done?, (Drill Press Method, 3-D Printer Method or Ghost Gunner Method) and can it be done well, not how much is it gonna cost to do it. (The cost is answered in the article: $1,334?, $3504?, $2272?)

So, all this other good information aside, has anyone here had any first or second hand knowledge of this Ghost Gunner CNC mill, ($1500) or something very similar to it? Has anyone here actually rented a CNC machine to someone or from someone for the making of a lower? Civil and Political Rights are a class of rights protecting individuals' freedoms (freedoms being GOD-given rights, not man-made, or 'given') from infringement by governments, social organizations and private individuals, and which ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the society and state without discrimination or repression. The Ghost Gunner's maker/seller sees this as a Civil Rights issue. I am a Civil Rights Supporter.

Thanks, all.


Carry On!
Gary
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GRW1,
The rent aspect was discussed last year IIRC in light of an ATF ruling about Aries Armory and companies that you push the start button at their facility to complete a lower .ATF found that was illegal ,it came down to who is in Control of the machine/Location of it .

As i see it if you rent it out and it leaves Your premises and then is returned to your premises then you for that period are Not in Control of the machine and it would be Legal as the "manufacture "is not on a location you have any control over ,negating the ATF ruling by changing the "Control"/Location issue they nailed a number of companies with .

This is why it is small form factor and portable by design ,i am sure they read the ATF ruling and built the machine /programing the way they did .Rather clever of them in how to get around the Control/Location issue that caused so many companies grief from ATF .

So i would say Yes in my opinion renting it out would be legal if they rent, move it ,use it and return it to your location !! Just my opinion !!!!
 

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ATF 2015-1 is the latest actual ruling on this, although there are some more recent FAQs.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download
Held further,
a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment
I would think "dominion and control" could be twisted to count for rentals easily enough, but IANL

Personally, living in Austin and knowing most of the firearms businesses around here, Ghost Gunner/Defesnse Distributed is universally considered a bunch of attention-hounds that's main purpose is to get more attention for Cody Wilson, Inc, no matter what damage it might do to law abiding firearms owners and builders. Count the press-releases and articles versus actual shipped products....

I had a chat with an ATF lawyer at SHOT this year and he said there were not any restrictions on transferring guns without serial numbers, although they strongly preferred they had them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
"So, all this other good information aside, has anyone here had any first or second hand knowledge of this Ghost Gunner CNC mill, ($1500) or something very similar to it? .... I do appreciate the comments and opinions above and am trying to not be churlish. My questioning is just going in a different direction.... "

Thanks, all.


Carry On!
Gary
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