need another opinion any one know if a transferable m37 plate can be made into a 1919a4 the plate is already cut out for the right hand feed and the charging slot seems to be different any experts let me know if it can be done thanks
any one know if an m37 plate can be made into a 1919a4
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I wouldn't do it, build it as a M37
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M37 vs 1919 Plate
Rory,
The m37 plate is different in several ways. The large rivet holes are in different locations between the two. You would have to weld up the M37 Plate and redrill to build it on a 1919 trunion. The M37 is a much more collectable beltfed as they weren't as rare. They were built after WW2 so if thats your criteria think about it. Personally I think it would make more sense to build it as a M37 and enjoy it. FA 1919's average 14-15K and M37's average about 3-4K
more.....usually as do original parts kits.
Just my 2 cents.
TiredIron
Rory,
The m37 plate is different in several ways. The large rivet holes are in different locations between the two. You would have to weld up the M37 Plate and redrill to build it on a 1919 trunion. The M37 is a much more collectable beltfed as they weren't as rare. They were built after WW2 so if thats your criteria think about it. Personally I think it would make more sense to build it as a M37 and enjoy it. FA 1919's average 14-15K and M37's average about 3-4K
more.....usually as do original parts kits.
Just my 2 cents.
TiredIron
You will need more than just a few parts to make a complete M37 for example the back plate is different has about eight more parts and attaches in a different way. The feed cover is also different. You will need parts for the bolt retraction assembly and an ejection chute. The recoil spring is also retained in a differnt way and is a captive spring. The bolt is also different to allow for left or right hand feed. With all that said there are many people who have built M37's and I guess many more who want to. If you want a M1919A4 I am sure somebody may wish to make a trade for your side plate.
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There is a simple solution. Get an M37 kit from Mondragoon here on the board. Yes, it's much more expensive than a 1919 kit. But it's worth a lot more. As TiredIron said, the resulting gun will be worth $3-4k more than a 1919 sideplate gun, and you will not spend quite that much for the kit.
Yes
Tanktrack,
ATF gave Collectors Corner (now OOW) a letter to convert M37 sideplates to 1919's 16 or 17 years ago.
If I look hard enough ... maybe I can find my copy of that letter.
I know because I am the one that welded, re-machined and engraved all of those Group Industries sideplates.
Built about 150 of the sideplates as A4's and 1917 (28 M37's).
Tanktrack,
ATF gave Collectors Corner (now OOW) a letter to convert M37 sideplates to 1919's 16 or 17 years ago.
If I look hard enough ... maybe I can find my copy of that letter.
I know because I am the one that welded, re-machined and engraved all of those Group Industries sideplates.
Built about 150 of the sideplates as A4's and 1917 (28 M37's).
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2,700 Posts
Ha ha ... As what? Post Samples? OOW doesn't need any ATF letter. They were/are Class 2 MFG. Don't need no stinkin' letter. Good try. I'm amused.
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When converting a registered sideplate to something else that is a different bolt/rivet/ feed pattern, in other words something that permanently alters the plate, you must obtain a letter from atf to allow the conversion of the machinegun. Yes Shattered those plates he is referring to were transferrable m-37 plates. Even oow has to stay legal so not to loose transferrable status on a $15000 plate. It is the same way Bob Naess got a letter to convert transferrable and C&R 1908 maxim sideplates to 1910 russian maxims. The plates cant just be swapped so special permission is required for any "permanent alteration" to the plate. Bob is the reason there are more than 4 of 5 russian maxims in the registery now.
Back to the original question, Hell no, even though it can be done, build it as an m37 or let someone else buy it that will do it right. Like I said before, if you need a plate, buy a dlo transferrable off the sturm board, break it down and put the plate on your watercooled parts kit. Since there is no permanent alteration of the plate between a 1919 and a 1917, then there is no permission required. You will quickly spend the few thousand dollars saved on buying the m37 plate on rewelding it to 1919 specs, you wont have the free parts that came with the already built 1919 and you will dick up a perfectly good m37 plate in the process. If you have changed your mind and now want a 1919 instead of the watercooled you described the other day, then just buy a built dlo gun off sturm. I promise you will come out cheaper and have a great gun from the get go. Thats about as clear as I can explain it. As usual, the above spill is worth exactly what you paid for it
Back to the original question, Hell no, even though it can be done, build it as an m37 or let someone else buy it that will do it right. Like I said before, if you need a plate, buy a dlo transferrable off the sturm board, break it down and put the plate on your watercooled parts kit. Since there is no permanent alteration of the plate between a 1919 and a 1917, then there is no permission required. You will quickly spend the few thousand dollars saved on buying the m37 plate on rewelding it to 1919 specs, you wont have the free parts that came with the already built 1919 and you will dick up a perfectly good m37 plate in the process. If you have changed your mind and now want a 1919 instead of the watercooled you described the other day, then just buy a built dlo gun off sturm. I promise you will come out cheaper and have a great gun from the get go. Thats about as clear as I can explain it. As usual, the above spill is worth exactly what you paid for it
Now you know why I never participate
Wow, there have been more knowledgable people in this field in the last few years than ever before. (Shattered) Everybody is an expert. (NOT)
The guys you hold on a pedestal in this industry (Goldsmith, Lamont, Kielholz, Brown, Forgett etc.) I have known and shot with for years.
I used to go to Knob Creek when they were lucky to get 400 people to show up. Did you know that Kent Lamonts father used to sleep in a sleeping bag on the ground in front of the firing positions at KC? Of course not ... you experts have only been around for 10 or so years! Me - since 1980!! Kent would wake him up in the morning with a burst of gun fire.
Shattered, Landies used to do business under the Collectors Corner name ... from the basement of his home in Chardon, Ohio. He had no facilities back then to manufacture anything. He subbed out most of the work he acquired. Like M37 plates from Group and those Stainless M16 receivers that Mike got registered and never completed.
The M37 sideplates were registered before May '86 but never built into guns for one simple reason. No M37 parts kits were available back then but a plethora (a "bunch" for you Shattered) of 1919 and Argentine 28's were.
We showed ATF that the basic configuration of the M37 was similar enough to the 1919/17 that they approved the changes.
If you look at one of these Group Industries guns you will see that Mike Brown put his original company logo and serial number on what was to be the INSIDE of a built gun. Remove the grip and entrails and you will see, several inches forward, Mike's company logo. If it doesn't have this logo there ... someone has illegally made a new sideplate!
In the process of changing these to 1919/17's I engraved Mike's information along the bottom edge of the plate to comply with ATF regulations. Then depending on what the customer ordered I engraved Saginaw Steering Gear, Westinghouse, Buffalo Arms or that fancy Colt logo that you see in Dolf's book!
There is a lot of misinformation on these web forums perpetuated by guys like Shattered (know it alls) and are the reason I rarely add my .02 cents.
Well, back to hibernation!
Wow, there have been more knowledgable people in this field in the last few years than ever before. (Shattered) Everybody is an expert. (NOT)
The guys you hold on a pedestal in this industry (Goldsmith, Lamont, Kielholz, Brown, Forgett etc.) I have known and shot with for years.
I used to go to Knob Creek when they were lucky to get 400 people to show up. Did you know that Kent Lamonts father used to sleep in a sleeping bag on the ground in front of the firing positions at KC? Of course not ... you experts have only been around for 10 or so years! Me - since 1980!! Kent would wake him up in the morning with a burst of gun fire.
Shattered, Landies used to do business under the Collectors Corner name ... from the basement of his home in Chardon, Ohio. He had no facilities back then to manufacture anything. He subbed out most of the work he acquired. Like M37 plates from Group and those Stainless M16 receivers that Mike got registered and never completed.
The M37 sideplates were registered before May '86 but never built into guns for one simple reason. No M37 parts kits were available back then but a plethora (a "bunch" for you Shattered) of 1919 and Argentine 28's were.
We showed ATF that the basic configuration of the M37 was similar enough to the 1919/17 that they approved the changes.
If you look at one of these Group Industries guns you will see that Mike Brown put his original company logo and serial number on what was to be the INSIDE of a built gun. Remove the grip and entrails and you will see, several inches forward, Mike's company logo. If it doesn't have this logo there ... someone has illegally made a new sideplate!
In the process of changing these to 1919/17's I engraved Mike's information along the bottom edge of the plate to comply with ATF regulations. Then depending on what the customer ordered I engraved Saginaw Steering Gear, Westinghouse, Buffalo Arms or that fancy Colt logo that you see in Dolf's book!
There is a lot of misinformation on these web forums perpetuated by guys like Shattered (know it alls) and are the reason I rarely add my .02 cents.
Well, back to hibernation!
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Sorry "X", I apologize when wrong and I was wrong about this. I read Jmann's response, looked it up and regretted my post immediately. Oh well, I guess I'm guilty of post count profiling. Saw the almost non-existent count and figured you were an "Internet Kommando". I've done bidness with Collectors Corner and have received several Group Industries '17's back in the late '80's, early '90's. Didn't realize they were converted 37 sideplates.
I've been shooting since the '60's and went SOT in the late '80s. You don't have all that much of a lead on me as you might think.
Again, I apologize, don't crawl back under your rock because of one stupid mistatement of mine.
I've been shooting since the '60's and went SOT in the late '80s. You don't have all that much of a lead on me as you might think.
Again, I apologize, don't crawl back under your rock because of one stupid mistatement of mine.
Apology accepted
Shattered,
I accept your apology. I make mistakes too. (It's been so long though!?)
If you have been doing this since way back when ... you can appreciate the "good old days"! My first 28 Thompson came from Odin International and I paid $475.00 for it.
When the price of these things started to go up in the 90's, money people got involved and were more concerned about the bottom line than they were about quality work and the time it takes to do such. The "good old days" are gone pretty much!
While Bob was putting together his own shop out in Chardon, I built about 150 guns for him and assembled many more from plates that he sold.
We did so much neat stuff back in the day! Some of it I probably cannot write about ... but they be good times in my memory banks!!
As for your Group sideplates that you did not know was an M37 plate ... my TIG welding was pretty good for an amatuer. (I purchased my TIG welder to do these Group sideplates and took a community college class to learn.) At the time I did these things we didn't know how to go about paperwork change (from M37 to 1919/17) so some of the paperwork would still say M37 on it. (If someone else hasn't already changed it.)
Shattered,
I accept your apology. I make mistakes too. (It's been so long though!?)
If you have been doing this since way back when ... you can appreciate the "good old days"! My first 28 Thompson came from Odin International and I paid $475.00 for it.
When the price of these things started to go up in the 90's, money people got involved and were more concerned about the bottom line than they were about quality work and the time it takes to do such. The "good old days" are gone pretty much!
While Bob was putting together his own shop out in Chardon, I built about 150 guns for him and assembled many more from plates that he sold.
We did so much neat stuff back in the day! Some of it I probably cannot write about ... but they be good times in my memory banks!!
As for your Group sideplates that you did not know was an M37 plate ... my TIG welding was pretty good for an amatuer. (I purchased my TIG welder to do these Group sideplates and took a community college class to learn.) At the time I did these things we didn't know how to go about paperwork change (from M37 to 1919/17) so some of the paperwork would still say M37 on it. (If someone else hasn't already changed it.)
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So, you dont think Im hot?? I have a few cool guns, how else does one attract ladies?
Only a couple of the guns and none of the ladies belong to me. However the man that said the best way to attract a hot women was with a fast car never tried a fast gun
Only a couple of the guns and none of the ladies belong to me. However the man that said the best way to attract a hot women was with a fast car never tried a fast gun
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