I'm coming up short in my fairly extensive personal library, and there isn't much on on-line either regarding production variations, etc.
My first and most obvious question is why, when finding pics do some have 1928 bottom plates, and others have M1917A1 bottom plates? I understand all the photo references I can find are put togethers, but are both versions correct?
Thanks. I'm surprised there isn't more info out there. To draw a comparison the 1909 Maxim is the Swiss, Belgian, and Chinese Maxim with slight differences - Is the Colt M37 the 1909 equivalent? Is the 1928 just a M37 with an optic mount on the side? Is the only thing that makes the gun "Argentine" the muzzle gland/flash hider?
The Argentine contract 1928 has a number of other differences including the top cover, rear sight, etc. Dolf's books on the 30 cal Brownings covers this. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere that compares a number of different components. The tripods are particularly different.
I only have Volume 1 of his Browning books, which doesn't cover much at all in specifics. Colt sold 350 guns to Argentina in 1929, which was 8 years before the riveted bottom plate. But Colt also sold the commercial gun up to 1940. Did the guns sold post 1937 have the 1917A1 style bottom plate?
Not particularly, the Argentine/commercial guns just peaked my interest over the weekend. I've found just as many pics of 1928 sideplates built into 1917A1 style guns as I have with the correct 1928 bottom plates.
like this one - 1928 Water Cooled Engraving
When you start looking for more info and you find inconsistent data, you start asking more questions. Did Colt ever make a 1917A1 style gun with the captured/1928 style return spring? The parts were there at the time, or was that a military only thing to use the A1 bottom plates to upgrade the 1917s?
Let me try to un-complicate things. Colt sold MGs commercially based on the M1917 design.
Colt's biggest customers were:
Argentina
Thailand
Bolivia
Paraguay
Mexico.
What did those guns look like? I started asking about the Argentine guns because they are most prevalent. Is the "Model 1928" Specific to Argentina or were the guns shipped to Bolivia also marked 1928, or were theirs stamped MG38? Obviously the 1909 Maxims are different but the comparison makes perfect sense in this context. The 1909 Chinese T24 was different from the Swiss MG11 as it had a squeeze trigger and mounts for AA sights on the water jacket. What if any are differences between the guns sold to Bolivia and Mexico? Was one 1928 and the other an M1924?
Dolf's volume 1 includes a pic of an alleged 1919 WC BMG, #322, but the gun pictured is an Argentine made 1928 and is so marked, which can be seen on the right sideplate of the gun pictured.
Too funny. You told me "As far as "data" inconsistencies, there are none. " and here you reference one of the exact pieces of that inconsistent data I was referring to!
But seriously, thanks guys. This has turned into a great thread.
One of the best parts of this hobby is there are unknowns that are unknowable. The hunt is more fun than the kill.
I've been doing this for 20 years and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on water cooled guns, parts and many many books in search of answers. I've spent weeks deconstructing old parts and making new ones for these old guns so they can keep running. To suggest I'm in this for a "gotcha" moment would be insulting if it wasn't so hilarious. You'll have that dealing with text. Things get lost in a perceived inflection and assumptions. I have no doubt this discussion would have a completely different tone in person.
We can argue about what a "mis-identified " picture is or isn't. It may be insignificant, but it seems no one knows for sure whether or not a simple stamp on a sideplate of "1928" was an Argentine specific thing in 1929.
I think I was just looking in the wrong direction for answers, and overlooking the obvious.
Volume I of Dolf's Browning book, Chapter 11 covers commercial guns after WW1. Not once in that chapter is an M1928 mentioned. It makes sense because Colt stopped model numbers like that at M1924, and went to MG38. I looked in a another Colt book and no mention of an M1928, only the watercooled MG38.
In Segel's Machine Gun Support Equipment and Accessories he says the Colt 1917 pattern export model was the MG38, and that Argentina designated them the M1928.
So as the DWM Commercial 1909 is the Type 24, the Colt Commercial MG38 is the M1928.
Err sort of. The 1928 guns are listed by their colt c prefix serial numbers on the left side plate along with all the colt factory info, just like all other colt guns. These were covered over with the zeiss brackets that were added in argentina but the info is there, and can be used along with the colt serial number registers to date the guns production. The number on the rsp as well as the number stamped all over the gun was done as part of the argentine contract, but is not the guns serial number. There were specifics done to the 28 for the argentine contract as well. Obviously the rear sight and the safety on the backplate was an argentine requirement as well. There were minor changes to the tripod also.
The mg38 has always been considered an upgraded gun over the 28, if for no other reason than the waterjacket improvements, and i dont think, but I will have to check when I can get to my records, that any 38’s were made before the completion of colts part of the argentine contract on the 28 guns. Now argentina did buy some 38’s also but they did not have the dolled up engraving and were simply c prefix commercial colt guns. Of course they made their own 28’s domestically as well, along with mounts and spare parts.
I think there were a couple curves in the road where the 1928, M1924 and MG38 merged. The book says the only difference between the M1924 and the MG38 is a name change that took place in 1931. So an Argentine 1928 was at first a customized M1924 (with an added thumb safety, sight bracket, etc) when the first batch was shipped in 1929, and an MG38 when the last batch was shipped in 1933. Unfortunately the export records dont indicate M1924 of 1928 - - only 7.65 water-cooled and later 7.65MM MG38.
I understand the serial numbers. I have one of the first batch Maxim World Standards that shipped to Argentina. It also has the factory SN inside and the Argentine number outside.
the one thing that was more of a name change on the 38 series guns was a complete redesign of the trunnion and waterjacket. Those guns evolved into mini versions of the mg52. The 1924 guns I’ve inspected had sliding rear safeties and 1917 style bottom plates. The 28 gained colts improved bottom plate and a captive recoil spring, where the 38 had 28 features plus the above mentioned enhancements.
we havent even discusses the 1919 commercial watercooled yet!
So another mystery is would a Colt MG38 made in 1939 look any different had there never been the Argentine contract in 1928? I've worked in the corporate world were marketing and operations fought tooth and nail over changes made by sales for specific clients, which ended up being adopted across the platform down the road.
The 1919 commercial watercooled looks like a bottomless pit, The MG40 water-cooled may be an easier one to take on next.
There is no MG40 water cooled. The Colt MG38 series was the end of the line for which there would be no further need to improve on.
The Colt M1928 was a " Contract" model for Argentine only. Argentine military sent their desired wishes to Colt, Colt hashed up what they wanted for the price. Other Arg Military wanted other changes, Colt probably pushed back on the design based on tooling changes and cost. This went back and forth on the sales order with that country for over a year and a half before any guns were actually tooled up and start to be made to that final spec. How many spare barrels and parts groups and other accessories like tools and armorers parts and tool kits, sighting devices, loaders, belts, tripods ect. This would all be under one master contract called the M1928 for Argentine. Colt used subcontractors to fulfill the whole contract I'm sure, because they were a much smaller company then we all thought to get that much out the door in as short as time possible. Its just not the what 800 guns. At the same time Colt knows that the faster they get delivered, the less likely the technology improvements of the day wouldn't catch up to cancel the order. Hense, push back on more changes to what they already had tooled up for. When did Argentine actually start receiving their first guns? Probably two years past the 1928 contact request at the soonest, when did deliveries end? Probably not much past 1932-34. Dolf notes that congress gets in the mix to get their share of tax on export of guns which are noted in congressional records with some serial numbers. Sales is one part but actual delivery is another. What I mean is that they may have received 800 guns but them may not have all been marked M1928 in the context you think of what a 1928 is " IF" some of the guns went out as special designated guns. Since a special gun would not be the M1928 spec, its feasible that Colt may have marked them differently. Special designated guns are already part of the design table in the Colt factory. Could have been a future sales example. I think most of the M1928 if not all but a few are the same but not exclusively. Which doesn't matter as far as most of us are concerned, we wont ever know about those " If " they were different. To us we'll just know what a M1928 is and that will be the end of the line on that discussion for lack of better records.
I'm highly interested in Bob's affirmation that only one MG38 is in the C&R. I'm curious to know how you would know that or is that just a highly educated guess? I'm not challenging I'm just interested. I'm curious if your list of Dolf's shows the serial numbers or if that can be retrieved any way? I'm not taking about refitted side plate guns but actual Colt built guns. Because I have put my hands on an original Colt MG38 built gun and took the grease out of it and shot it. I dont own the gun and have not seen or asked about the registration paper work but the right side plate is not altered and is marked starting with C for commercial sales.
There was a watercooled MG40. Three pages after it's discussed in Volume 1 Dolf lists the export numbers of the guns shipped to the Republic of Argentina. There were 350 prior to 1930 and the last shipped in 1933.
While we're on the topic of MG40s -- Is the recoil spring/guide in the 1928/MG38 pattern the same as the MG40? I know the boxes are smaller so the other internals don't fit, but are springs good replacements for current 1928 builds?
The factory Colt gun I’ve handled not a side plate gun. I suppose those could have been amnesty registered and not C&R. But then that brings up another interesting questions and maybe validation, as to where were several of these guns sitting for years unregistered for that long. And the origin was told that this gun I know was sitting in a factory for years, built 7.65 Arg for export and never exported. I doubt I could talk the owner into doing a FOIA request. So that statement did interest me about C&R status.
In two days I may be able to visit that gun if there are any questions anyone has that I could check to help me date or general interests let me know now.
The factory Colt gun I’ve handled not a side plate gun. I suppose those could have been amnesty registered and not C&R. But then that brings up another interesting questions and maybe validation, as to where were several of these guns sitting for years unregistered for that long. And the origin was told that this gun I know was sitting in a factory for years, built 7.65 Arg for export and never exported. I doubt I could talk the owner into doing a FOIA request. So that statement did interest me about C&R status.
This is a perfect example of what I call inconsistent/contradictory/confusing data we have to deal with. Regardless what the FOIA says, your buddy could still have an original MG38B. If a few were "found" which were not registered prior to '68, they "should" have been cut and welded together to make a new MG or rebuilt with registered plates. There are many "found" MGs post '68 that were simply registered by dealers. Just because the FOIA says Billy Joe registered it in 1972, doesnt mean it's not a 100% original gun.
Is the muzzle gland the size of the 1917 or the 1928? Looks like the 1917. The headspace notches are drawn square like the 1928 and it looks like 57 is a plunger.
Too bad that gun was assembled with an Israeli left side plate. Will be interesting to see what that hodgepodge sells for.
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