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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In my quest to purchase my first 1919 I have been looking at many pictures of available ones for sale. I have noticed several bottom plates that have punch marks in them. Do the marks indicate anything?
 

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Pictures would help but are you talking about the stake marks around the breech lock cam screw on the bottom/underside of it? The izzy's love to stake things in and I have seen them staked where the bottom plate mated against the side plates as well as many other areas on the guns as well so can you be a little more specific?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I will have to look for a picture. What I was referring to would be punch marks in the bottom side rails. If your looking at the bottom of the gun right over the side plates. I have seen one with 3 marks and another with more on one side of the bottom plate. I was just wondering if they have a meaning or someone with a hammer and punch was bored.
 

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Those would be the stake marks the izzy's did to them in the lend lease when they converted them to 7.62x51 we have seen welds, stake marks and other mods done to keep parts secure during use. They were not concerned about looks but more about reliability so what we see as ugly they were not concerned about. There are better options out there if you plan on doing a nice looking build but bottom plates are one of the parts that have become scarce but be patient and you will find the right one for your build.
 

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Russ

Is He referring to the RIA rebuild /or whatever ...punchmarks.
Usually on the left side iirc..of the bottom plate?
Maybe elsewhere...sightbase ..I ferget.

Looked for a pic.....perhaps Rollin will get wind of this thread.
 

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Could be Duke I may have misunderstood him that is why I asked for pictures but we will see shortly.
 

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Lucky will likely jump in here shortly, but I believe these were rebuild markings applied by arsenal the significance of the number of punch marks is not known to me. This is likely something done locally as I have not seen or can not recall seeing anything in any of the rebuild pubs that would explain these punches.
 

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In machine repair it is not uncommon to punch mark parts to know what goes where and with what. That would be my guess. J.R.
 

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Russ

Is He referring to the RIA rebuild /or whatever ...punchmarks.
Usually on the left side iirc..of the bottom plate?
Maybe elsewhere...sightbase ..I ferget.

Looked for a pic.....perhaps Rollin will get wind of this thread.
TheDuke is correct, these are most often seen on the early RIA rebuilds.
Here is a picture of mine which was an early Westinghouse WWI gun originally.
CaptMax
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
That picture is one of the pictures I saw. There were others that had similar marks in the same area.
 

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Looks like you were right Dan I guess I misunderstood what he was trying to explain. The guys are right that those are often seen on RIA rebuilds those are not izzy marks. Thanks for the picture Captmax.
 

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I'm here, I'm here!!! Late to the party again.

I think our best guess has been that these were some kind of mark from the rebuild process. They look similar to a Rockwell test mark, but I don't know why they would bother testing for hardness, when no heat treat was called for on these. See, you guys don't need me. Charlie, Russ, Dan, you guys have all the info. :D
 

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I'm here, I'm here!!! Late to the party again.

I think our best guess has been that these were some kind of mark from the rebuild process. They look similar to a Rockwell test mark, but I don't know why they would bother testing for hardness, when no heat treat was called for on these. See, you guys don't need me. Charlie, Russ, Dan, you guys have all the info. :D
Lucky#13, it is because of these guys that we need you!!!!!
I agree it some kind of arsonal mark for whatever reason, maybe an inspectors way of knowing how many times it was rebuilt or ???
CaptMax
 

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I'm here, I'm here!!! Late to the party again.

I think our best guess has been that these were some kind of mark from the rebuild process. They look similar to a Rockwell test mark, but I don't know why they would bother testing for hardness, when no heat treat was called for on these. See, you guys don't need me. Charlie, Russ, Dan, you guys have all the info. :D
Maybe they had concerns about the quality of the steel, that was a big issue with the cracking side plates. Ill have to dig out my MP plates (or make you look at the one you have:rolleyes: I have seen those marks on Sight risers IIRC on converted guns. The idea they were rebuild marks made sense because of the armies habit of rebuilding what was issued over and over but leaving new unissued stuff crated and canned till a big war. Most of the MP plates these appear on are 39-41 production.(Not to long after they did the research and upgrade plans, it might be tied to that) Am wondering if that is a connection to the appearrance or if they appear more across the board on other makers bottom plates? Just some thoughts.
 

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Maybe they had concerns about the quality of the steel, that was a big issue with the cracking side plates. Ill have to dig out my MP plates (or make you look at the one you have:rolleyes: I have seen those marks on Sight risers IIRC on converted guns. The idea they were rebuild marks made sense because of the armies habit of rebuilding what was issued over and over but leaving new unissued stuff crated and canned till a big war. Most of the MP plates these appear on are 39-41 production.(Not to long after they did the research and upgrade plans, it might be tied to that) Am wondering if that is a connection to the appearrance or if they appear more across the board on other makers bottom plates? Just some thoughts.
That exactly right. Many of the MWO's (Modification Work Orders) plainly state that weapons will not be withdrawn from storage for modification.
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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Maybe they had concerns about the quality of the steel, that was a big issue with the cracking side plates. Ill have to dig out my MP plates (or make you look at the one you have:rolleyes: I have seen those marks on Sight risers IIRC on converted guns. The idea they were rebuild marks made sense because of the armies habit of rebuilding what was issued over and over but leaving new unissued stuff crated and canned till a big war. Most of the MP plates these appear on are 39-41 production.(Not to long after they did the research and upgrade plans, it might be tied to that) Am wondering if that is a connection to the appearrance or if they appear more across the board on other makers bottom plates? Just some thoughts.
The concerns on the steel applied to the early, 1917 style bottom plates, so I don't think there would be any such questions about the riveted style. No specs are called for on these, as to hardness. It remained a 1035 steel forging from development through the 1950s, or pearlitic malleable iron castings in the case of SG. In the end, those marks likely are not related to a harness tester. They just resemble that. I am inclined to think they were some kind of mark related to rebuilding, or an inspection mark as part of that process.

Now if they prove to be common mostly on conversion bottom plates, that may bring up a different issue. Fit of the sideplate into the new bottom plate groove was obviously an issue that had to be addressed, and eventually resulted in two different bottom plate lines; one for conversion and one for new production.

But we all are in agreement on the unissued stocks in storage. Tens of thousands of new 1917s appear to have been stashed away for 20 years, only to get pulled in the ramp up to WWII. We gave 6000 (in original configuration) to the Brits, as part of Lend Lease. Then we took thousands more and converted them to either air cooled A4s or to 1917A1 spec, both of which involve those conversion spec bottom plates. Freshly removed water jackets, from those unissued-1917 to 1919A4 conversions, then got put into all new RIA 1917A1 production receivers, with the standard spec bottom plates.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The other one is stamped like that but on the rib to the left or towards the front of the gun. Two marks the same way close to the rib.
 

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Hmmm, be a Real Hoot if it was somebody just sitting around trying to Look Busy when the boss was around..:lol::lol:

I've seen stranger stuff than that before..:lol:
 
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