[machinist89]

I ordered one of APEX's BREDA tray loading machines, per Richard's post in OPEN TALK. I promptly received a 'Shipped' notice from APEX, but then wait, wait and UPS sends a "Severe Weather Delay' notice each day for about ten days. And then it snowed here about 6", but today feels like Christmas because Cliff the UPS man delivered the loader!

I am giving a big shout out to Richard and all the staff at APEX Gun Parts for making these rare and fabulous items available to collectors like us. This post will review the loader and Spoiler Alert show how the thing operates. If you want to figure that out yourself, best not read part 2 of this thread...

The loader is packaged inside a very cool, green-painted wooden box. The box itself is completely intact and in very good shape for its age. Unlatching the box, the loader hinges out and part of the box side serves as the supporting leg. Man this thing is big when it is all set up!

This pict shows the parts that are stored in the bottom of the box, namely the crank handle and hopper.

Under the wooden cover are some cubby holes likely for some long lost tools that went with the loader.

Right off the bat I noticed some issues (that have nothing to do with APEX's handling of this sale). The box hinge was missing a bunch of screws (or bolts) and the few that remain are way too long replacements. As a result, the loader platten would not sit parallel with the box.

So first action item, I will be looking to find or make some period correct bolts to secure the hinge to the box.

Next there is a plunger and spring assembly that cycles on the crank cam. Interestingly plunger is not secure with a pin or by other means. The spring will send it flying when the crank assembly is taken apart. When this happened to me, I noticed the spring was broken in half. I rummaged around my spring collection and found a suitable replacement.

A more serious problem is that the crank arbor shaft and dogleg arm are worn from zillions of years of use. The end of the arbor transforms into a square shape that fits into a mating square cutout on the dogleg. The arbor square corners are rounded the most and if that completely fails to engage with the dogleg, the crank will no longer cycle the loader. Fortunately it would be a relatively simple exercise to machine a new arbor...if needed.

The bolt and secures these two parts is a 10 mm hex bolt. The hex was pretty chewed up by bubba tightening it with vise grips or pliers. This bolt does not use a lock washer, so thread locker will be needed to keep it from backing out.

Lastly the crank handle knob was cracked in half, as Richard said might be the case. It looks sort of like Bakolite material or phenolic material. Mcmaster-Carr has brown Garolite Rods that might be a suitable material to make new handles.

Oh I forgot, the crank handle must have used a C-clip affair to retain it onto the crack shaft. I'll have to come up with a replacement clip

Ok this wraps up the first part of this post. Overall the APEX loader is in very good shape, with some 'minor' wear and tear issues that can be fixed.

 

[toolmanm203]

Good review and I look forward to the updates and the video of you loading strips. I got two of them from APEX and am comparing them now and bought some wire stock to make the spring for the handle so I will let you know how that works out.

 

[R.S.Mtn.]

These have not been available to over 10 years, so its actually really exciting to see them once again.

Richard said they are in varying degree of missing or broken pieces and parts, some no box, some no hopper or box just base unit. First come first serve on better units until gone. Mine didn’t come with compartment tray and missing most hinge screws. My entire metal sheet metal frame and top is bent everywhere. I have no idea how that could have happened without breaking out all the wood. Your box is in great shape compared to mine. Also, I believe mine has machine screws and a nut holding the hinge Not wood screws.
Previously, I had a loader base only missing the hopper and everything else, that complicated coil spring on the end is somewhat in relic rusty condition but it still works fine, Apex units look like new comprabably. Considering these were made in 1940’s, this is an exceptional rare find. To be clear I had to buy one once I saw Apex had them at a supper price
I’ve had a hopper made and a crank handle made for my previous loader so I have two working units now. Prior to that I was using a 1/2 socket, and single feeding hahaha.

 

[machinist89]

Good to see there is some interest here. So in recap, the Breda tray loader arrived in reasonably good shape and the loader design is of ingenious Italian engineering that is so common in period BREDA and Beretta manufacturing. I post here a few observations in how this beast works...

Ok, so first of all the cam I mentioned previously controls the crank arms AND prevents counter-rotation. The crank handle must be rotated only in the clockwise direction or the thing will jam.

The loader will not cycle without the tray installed unless two things are done first. Don't try to cycle by force or things will break and then ACK! you will need to find a good machinist. First there is a thumb switch that must be depressed to release what I call the driving rod (that moves the tray forward).

Once the first tray cam is manually depressed, the loader can be cycled without the tray...to see how it operates. Once the driving rod passes by the cam, it can be released and the loader will cycle from then on.

AFter confirming the loader will cycle without jamming, the hopper can be inserted into the mating grooves and slid toward the crank handle. The hopper has a spring-loaded pin retainer that must be lifted up to full install the hopper. Also the crank cycle must be fully forward to provide enough clearance for the hopper installation.

Now it is time to insert the ammo tray. It must be pushed into the driving cams until the first empty cartridge slot is inline with the hopper chute and driving rod. I had to manually depress one of the cams to get the tray to move that far.

Now load a few dummy rounds in the hopper and get ready for the magic!

During the crank cycle, one of the crank arms engages a spring-loaded assembly on the side of the hopper. I believe this helps release one of the cartridges into the feed slot.

All is good and right and now the thumb switch can be depress and the crank turned clockwise. The switch depression releases the driving rod, which then flops toward the next cartridge slot. As the cycle progresses, the rod slides into this second slot and in doing so pushes the tray forward. BUT not before the first cartridge is driven into the first tray slot.

Starting position:

Push thumb lever and drive rod forward:

Now the cycle reverse and a cartridge is pushed out of the hopper:

To continue...

 

[machinist89]

Now remember the thumb lever remains depressed during the loading process. At the end of the cycle, the driving rod flops to the next slot, shown here (but out of sequence, missed taking the pict at the correct time

As the driving rod moves forward, it pushes the tray to the next empty slot and the magic continues. As I learn more about this loader, I have no doubt there will be some discrepancies found with the loader operation description presented here. I welcome any corrections to the story as it evolves. I found that some of the cartridges did not slide fully into the tray and further study will be needed to determine why. I'll follow up with a video of the operation when I figure out how to do that. Also the issues from the first post will be fixed and reported on in a followup post.

Che bravo, bravissimo BREDA!

 

[toolmanm203]

Great job on the thread I got two of them earlier this week and this thread just forced me to go get one of them and load a tray so I could play with it. I think that they are cool as far as loaders go with the whole unload and load at the same time deal. I ran 70's Romy 8mm through it and the trays hold the rounds quite well.

 

[machinist89]

Well I wasn't planning on working on the loader today, but I got bored with sandblasting parts. Today I found some old-style slotted pan head machine screws that looked about right for reattaching the hinge to the box. I used a Dremel to cut off the bent over wood screws and carefully pulled them out. The 8/32 screw threads were 1" long, so I cut them down to about 0.865". I think I bought the screws from McMaster many moons ago. Replacing the wood screws with machine screws makes for a strong hinge design. Here's how it turned out:

 

[machinist89]

While doing all this I noticed that the crank handle has a hole and slot machined in it. That got me thinking about how the missing retaining clip may have been designed. I found a junk spring thingy from a recessed light fixture that worked well to prototype the clip. What I came up with worked perfectly well to hold the crank handle onto the crank shaft. Richard, if you are monitoring this thread, perhaps you might recognize something similar in the BREDA stuff you found in the warehouse. Let us know!

 

[R.S.Mtn.]

Great thread and walk through I think. It really surprised me when I got my first loader and was walking through the process with the feed trays and no hopper single loading. I was attempting to drop the round in the normal typical way every other loading device is designed, bullet tip forward. I had a hard time believing the seating arm would be shaped that way could punch the primer during the action........ I was so doubtful but dropped it in backwards (forwards) and it loaded right up. Thats when it really hit me how fascinating this loader is, those cam pawls on the feed tray reminded me of "valves" on a trumpet as does the thumb release and all the springs. It definitely breaks the mold.

I'm impressed with your handle retainer spring. Had you used a high carbon steel wire, you could have hardened and tempered it with a torch. Lots of videos on how to do that and I want to give it a try myself. There is one video of a saxophone/ brass instrument repair guy who shows is method and the spring retains a high polished " Royal Blue " hue to the high carbon spring steel, very educational video actually.

retemper old springs
another great flat spring video

another great spring steel video
I wont drop in your threat any farther until the end so I can better read your progress.

 

[machinist89]

Thanks for the interesting response and the video links! You are right that design is a weird backA$$ loader. I do have a ZB53 vz 37 loader IIRC it can load and unload the metal ammo belts. Not sure why you would want to unload a belt, but it must have been important to the Czechs at the time. Speaking of tempering your own springs, I made a flat metal retainer spring for the front AA sight on my Colt '28. Sorry I can't seem to find the picts at the moment. McMaster has annealed spring steel that you can cut and bend to net shape. After that, you simply heat it to the tempering temperature and out pops a spring. It is an amazing thing to see for yourself such a dramatic materials property change through heat treatment. As for the loader crank retainer, one can use music or spring wire, which bends without breaking while retaining its springy nature. Spring steel wire already has a black oxide layer, so it would look correct for the loader I think. You can buy these spring wires in rolls from McMaster too! M89

 

[R.S.Mtn.]

Good to know which I didn't, I'm going to look to see if they have bar stock too.

AS you said they have 1095 spring steel annealed in sheets and bar strips too, almost any size. Wow!

 

[Apexgunparts]

This has been an interesting thread to read thru.
I looked at these loaders stacked in a pallet box, saw them on the benches, discussed them with the people working on that project, but never spent time looking at how they work.
One thing I didn't see mentioned here, since the gun puts the empty casings back into the feed strip, the strip loader must push those out of the strip before inserting the live 8MM rounds.
I wonder how they collected up the empty casings?
Regarding springs, we found none of the spring wires for the handles, looks like they didn't have spares in the armorers kits. We did find the wound spring that goes on the shaft by the nut that is nearest the open box when the loader is set up. On some loaders we put one in the box if the installed spring looked like it may need replacing.
I think we have that small coil spring that powers the plunger on the crank shaft (yours was broken in half).
That is one of those items that appeared in full box, but we could not identify.
I will get with the workshop lead on Monday and see if that is the spring we have.
I think the workshop is working with the last of the BREDA material now, lots of SKU's to get photographed and listed.

Richard

 

[GBYENKO]

Well I went ahead and ordered one, figured I better get on it before they are all gone and I'd be kicking myself in the ass.

 

[Gorgon]

Here's the handle spring for your reference...

 

[machinist89]

Hi Richard, I am so glad you read through this post and found it interesting. I appreciate the back stage information on what was found when unpacking the pallets of loaders. Man, I would seriously volunteer my time as a worker in your warehouse just to have the chance to experience this MilSurp archeology reveal! Also, it is incredibly awesome to have a dealer communicating and even collaborating with the collector community at this level. This so beats 'the luck of the draw, that's what you get, so sorry for you' business model frequently seen with your competition. You guys are A+ in my book!

Let us know if you find that retaining clip or any of the tools that accompanied the contents of the loader box. Thank you Gorgon for sharing the pict showing what the retainer spring actually looks like. Not too far from what I imagined. The circle loop on the end is handy for releasing the handle AND it helps secure the handle in the storage cubby that has a groove cut just for that loop! Best M89

 

[machinist89]

Yesterday I had a chance to look at the crank handle and ponder what to do about the broken handle. Here is a crude sketch with dimensions taken from my handle. For those folks that may wish to make one, you will need to adjust the total length and the ID to match the metal handle rod.

I found a piece of bakelite in my junk draw. The red color is a close match to the original handle, but looking at the two together, I don't think the handle was made from this material. Or perhaps it is a similar material, but not make with the fabric composite. When you machine bakelite, the surface turns to more of a tan color. So this brings into question whether bakelite is the correct material for the handle fab. In addition, it appears the Gorgon's handle is made from wood. It may be original to the piece or perhaps an armory repair. Either way, I will be reproducing the handle using a dark hardwood. Stand by for that...M89

 

[toolmanm203]

I just ordered some stock to make the handle springs and am making a fixture for them. I'll start another thread for anyone who may need one when I am done and happy with the final product.

 

[mancavemachine]

Good review and I look forward to the updates and the video of you loading strips. I got two of them from APEX and am comparing them now and bought some wire stock to make the spring for the handle so I will let you know how that works out.

Following, thanks

 

[machinist89]

Thumbs up if you want to know how I got her working

 

[R.S.Mtn.]

Nice ! Have you thought about fountain pen turning blanks, they stabilize the wood, same as making the G10 or micarta material. Huge selection neat stuff and convenient working size.