[Bolt2bounce]

Has anyone built a 1919 by welding the side plate on instead of using rivets? Sounds like it might be a quick and easy way to build a gun, is there any disadvantages other than the disassembly into a parts kit down the road? Who breaks down a gun that is already built? other than a reg...FA side plate?? ....most modern MG are welded together these days...I know the purest would not like the idea, but for a blaster/ shooter it sound like an easy way to go, no drilling holes and no riveting... B2B

 

[MrBi11]

This is just an educated guess, not from experience on the 1919. There are applications when rivets preform better than a weld. IE if you'll notice ships are still riveted together and buildings with structural steel are bolted flanges.

a weld under constant vibration is susceptible to fatigue and failure, where a riveted joint will adsorb the micro movements. The stresses setup within the side plate/bottom may also cause premature failure when doing a full weld as opposed to just spot welding [as the BATF ruling used to say]

just a note: I've been doing blacksmithing for several years, have engineered many machines from concept to production and have a full machine shop in my backyard.

 

[KABAR2]

The main issue is catastrophic failure!

5) browning used basic engineering of the day to build this.

4) unless someone is an accomplished welder I would not attempt it.
how do you know your welds will be deep enough the trunnion has several long
rivets running through it, you want welds to take their place?

3) how are you going to weld the upper & lower frame (cast parts) to the side plates even if you normalize the metals you chance cracking.

2) there was some one who got the bright idea of welding an AK47 together,
welds weren't deep enough........... gun came apart. (smaller cartridge)

1)browning has more mass it will beat itself apart you need to us physical fasteners. If you choose to go the weld route please make a video of it,
it will be a good what not to do.

 

[Roc Rat]

Not to mention the strong possibility of warping the sideplate,, I've seen BIG steel do amazing things under heat.
Not smart to mess with JMB

 

[Bill S]

Besides the points listed above - the "Look" of the 1919 requires rivets. It's an esthetic issue, as well as a historic one. I'm sure you could use modified parts to build a rivetless gun, but it wouldn't look quite like a 1919.

But there's no law that says you have to maintain the look of the Browning if you don't want to. There are people on this board who have made strange variants of the gun that would have had John Moses Browning rolling in his grave.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I wouldn't do it, for maintainance, structural and esthetic reasons, and welding it would actually be more work than rivetting.

Rivets are easier than weldng with alot less concerns and leave the option of replacement if they don't look or work right the first time.

 

[kaotic01]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I happen to be an accomplished welder and I can tell you right now that you DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS!!!. Like KABAR2 said , you are taking cast parts and welding them to steel parts, which is not a good practice to start with, secondly you will have to get an extremely deep penetrating weld to fuse the thick parts of the trunnion, and last but not least I would not even try this myself and I have welded some extremely hard to weld metals before. We are not yelling at you but simply trying to urge you not to do this, we do not want anyone to get hurt.

 

[TiredIron]

AHhhhhhh....don't do it.

Building a riveted machine gun buy welding would be like painting the
Mona Lisa with a "roller".......
A good friend of mine had a 50M2 C3 that had been welded instead of riveted and the weapon was so warped it would never function realiably. Finally he had a catastrofic failure and it grenaded sending brass into lap....he's still got brass particles in his "Kohonays".....
Do the right thing my friend...either learn to rivet or have someone do it for you.
Adios
TiredIron

 

[Armorer]

With all that was said above, you would still have to fill in the rivet holes, either with dummy rivets, screws or weld up the holes and grind flush. Yes it would be a lot more work. Besides the BATF may still insist that you weld seam to seam on each part rather than just a few tack welds. I don't know how that could be accomplished and it would really look like crap. I can't imagine how you would secure the trunion properly without using those big rivets. Maybe grinding flush and welding the rivets on the ends?

I wonder if anyone has considered just investment casting the entire receiver? Now that would be something.

 

[Pirate]

depending on how you define welding it can safely be done.. Fusing two dissimilar ferrous metals is not difficult if you use the proper rod. in this case welding castings which are porus to plate you would want an alloy rod such a E308.

However welding the bottom plate in along the side would probably cause some warping. so you would want to mill some slots on the bottom and weld it to the plate in the slots. you will need good penetrating welds. To weld the plates to the trunnion you would ned to V the plates in front where they meet the trunnion to get a good deep weld.then weld around the edges on the inside of the plates. Assumint the welds were properly done, and deep enough with the proper rod, it would be sound.

Another approach would be to chamfer the holes on the plates and melt the rivet heads with a TIG torch and blend them into the side plates. I have used the TIG to ball rivet heads before with excellent results. when the rivets cool they shrink and pull tight.

when properly done a weld is the strongest way of fastening metal. Remember I said PROPERLY!! if you are not experienced with welding then I would not recomment welding anything. Like a previous poster mentioned about an ak that came apart. it failed because it was not done properly.

when the 1919 was designed metalurgy was in it's infancy, and things were built to last, so the gun was way over built. technology has come a long way since then. Imagine if some one tried to convince the army when they adoped the 1911 to make it out of plastic!! or that you could build a fa rifle from aluminum and plastic.
as for ships being riveted the titanic was riveted, modern ships are welded. I was on a submarine and am glad it was welded not riveted. the same goes for structures, buildings are bolted because it is fast and cheap, you can teach a monkey to tighten a bolt.

my opinions are based on over 35 years experience doing welding in industrial applications.

 

[Commander47]

I happen to be an accomplished welder and I can tell you right now that you DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS!!!. We are not yelling at you but simply trying to urge you not to do this, we do not want anyone to get hurt.

I have to agree with this. You are talking about cast parts and dissimilar metals.

Not that it can't be done, but it is just not a very good idea. The pressures and the abuse you are putting the weapon through were designed for a certain amount of "play".

That is, the weapon heats up and expands, contracts, is shaken, vibrated and handled a lot. Maybe with todays knowledge of alloys and such, it is ok with the newer weapons, but the 1919 was not designed for it.

If John B had meant for it to be welded, I'm sure he would have.

I do not recommend ever welding the AK family of fine firearms either. Screws or rivets flex and give just enough to keep it all together nicely. I believe Mikhail would have welded his trunnions to the receiver if he thought that was the strongest and cheapest way to do it.

I would think that welding is cheaper than riveting. You don't have to do all the machine steps of drilling holes, etc if these were welded at the factory.

Some might say the argument doesn't hold water since the Sten and M-3 are both welded. But these are open bolt guns and the stresses are much different.

 

[Pirate]

Browning didn't weld the 1919 because there was no welding technology up to the task at the time. that iss one of the reasons sheet metal guns didn't appear untill the 40's untill suitable means of welding were developed.

although welding appears to be cheap and easier than a bolt or rivet it is not, there is a lot of preperation needed to properly weld 2 peices of metal together.
and it takes a skilled worker to do it properly, unlike bolts or rivets.

 

[kaotic01]

Come on guys lets not start another pissing contest. I even admit that it can be done but should not be done, not on the "purest ideals" but on the metallurgical principles and stress factors and shear forces that it will endure!

 

[Lucky#13]

Not sure what the issue is here. Is it a lack of proper tooling to drill and rivet, or just a lack of experience in these skills? I would say that your best bet, if you don't want to rivet, is to do a screw build and weld it as per the tutorial here. That way you would be compliant, without doing so much welding that you might warp something. You will still have to drill holes, and you will also have to tap them, but that can be done by hand with simple tooling. I am not recommending that, but it is a better way to go than trying to weld the whole beast together.

As to the large trunnion rivets, you can screw it together there too. But you will need to be creative. One way is to have a custom set up made, consisting of a taper head 11/32 rivet that is fitted to the 60 degree chamfer on the side plate, long enough to reach into the opposing side plate. Basically you are making a big, long nut. It would then be drilled and tapped to fit a button head screw that is also turned to fit the side plate chamfer. It then acts against the side plate chamfers like a rivet when tighened, squeezing the assembly together. The upper trunnion, right side rivet/nut needs to be flat headed to clear the cover pivot plate, but the lower can have a dome if you want. But remember a screw build must have the deep penetrating welds at the top plate, bottom plate and trunnion.

 

[Pirate]

I was not trying to start a pissing contest here. some one asked a question and I gave an answer. I guess it is difficult for those who do not weld to fully understand the capabilities of welding.

Speaking as someone with years of experience and who loves to weld I look at it from a different perspective. I look at a properly done weld as a thing of beauty. I think it brings up some primordial urge to control fire, it is a wonderfull feeling to sit there with a TIG and have a 5,000 degree flame on the tip of a needle that you can melt and fuse together metal with.

 

[Bolt2bounce]

My question was only to gain some information on the possibility of building a 1919 by welding it together. There are many very skilled craftsman out there, who I believe could easily do the job. So I was just curious if it HAD been done by someone..... I've never welded anything so I'd have to say that method is not my first choice. It sounds like the prep work to weld a 1919 receiver would be as much work as riveting job would. That being said I think welding would work fine if done correctly. I'd agree with pirate, with proper welding the weld is stronger than the metal it joins. Ships are indeed welded together these days as are the new machine guns. HK's G3, the M-249 SAW M240B the list goes on and on.. metal warping can be controlled with heat sinks and fixture jigs as well as mig/tig machines which control the heat to a localized area... I think JMB would have made very good use of a tig machine if they had been in use. Imagine what kind of kick A$$ MG browning could have made with modern manufacturing... CNC, injection molding etc... B2B

 

[JamesR]

Why use Rivets

Because if you need to repair or replace worn or damaged parts, its the
easiest and can be done with simple tools. M-60's were welded and were discarded, not repaired. For the home builder if you make a mistake drill out
the rivet, do it again right. You get one chance to get it right if you weld.

 

[John Powell]

Bottom Plate

Are the bottom/top plates cast or forged?