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Ok guys, I have a pretty nice colt 28 water jacket I am wanting to build a 17a1 out of. I have a stripped Izzy left plate, a top plate, jacket, barrel, and most small parts. I would really like to get a halo lsp, and maybe even a halo rsp, a bottom plate, and a top cover/rear sight assembly from lucky#13. I'm no stranger to browning builds, but this will be my first watercooled. Anyone have any input? Random tips, etc? I am pretty sure I will go with new lsp, and rsp, as I want to go with a .30 cal belt pawl, and the Izzy plate has been modified. It should look great on my 17a1 tripod too! I'm just looking for any pointers and things to watch for on the brass trunion watercooled combo. Thanks in advance! Regards, jon
 

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wut 2 doo

I'm in nearly the same boat.

Got 2 28 front ends....neither quite nice enough for a full on "blued " type build.

Proper top cover/sight/internals/grip and a 1917 But Izzy modified LSP.
Soo wtf do you do?

I'm leaning toward beaterbuild..as it just makes more sense to have a battlefield look vs. some half assed
beat up frontend with a perfect rear. Its a tough call.

I love the petina of my 28 waterjackets..the perfect build would be able to match the well worn look somehow too the sideplates.

If I were to buy New Halo plates..I'd have to compliment them with one of Lou's front ends & have it all blued. Then I'd just look at it & be afraid to use it. Not a bad thing by any means..but a solution to building a well used looking but mostly correct gun is the dream I'm after.
 

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Sounds like you're on the right track. I used new left and right side plates on my 17A1 build and am glad I did because there is no discoloration from the welded rivet holes when its finished. Ive built 3 WC Brownings and had no problems other than a 28 plate warping from welding in the rivet holes (that one was turned into a 1917 so I needed to remove the sight bracket). I was very careful when peening the trunnion rivets and had no problems there with the bronze moving/ crushing. Both the 17 and 17A1 wear Lucky's rear sights, use 28 jackets and are cold blued so there is a nice patina on them. I used one of Lou's jackets on the 17A1 and that one is parked. FWIW
 

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... I was very careful when peening the trunnion rivets and had no problems there with the bronze moving/crushing. ...
It's funny you should mention that. When I picked up my ersatz '28 Argentine Colt it came with a '17A1 tripod. I then got a restored M35 tripod from jmann. I could not insert the tripod's front cross pin through the '28's trunnion mounting hole. When Craig Jordan built it back in the day he must have really peened those trunnion rivets. Anyway, I needed to use an automotive brake cylinder hone and slowly enlarge my trunnion mounting hole to get the correct cross pin fit.

If anyone gives two shits, the hone I used was a Car-Van 362. I found it on eGhey and it worked perfectly. I highly recommend it for the task in question. But, get an extra set of honing stones as you may need them. I went through three (3) set of honing stones.



 

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Good recommendations here. A couple of things I would add from my own experience. I've never had any trouble with the trunnions, but it depends on what method you use on those 11/32 rivets. I use the Plinker's fixture just to set the rivets initially, but not to try and flatten them. I do that the old fashioned way, on an anvil with either a hand-pounded driver or an air rivet gun, sometimes a combination of both. I really like to make sure the rivet material is well pounded into the chamfer in the side plates, so I get into full overkill on this. But that does not put pressure on your trunnion, as the opposite side of the rivet is supported and taking the blows as I pound the top side head.

Another thing to look at, before you start assembly. The height of the feedway on left and right side plates- not to mention trunnions- can vary all over the place. New plates often sit a bit tall, either because they are made to drawing spec or some compromise between that and the average height of original parts, which were all ground after assembly to a certain tolerance. So with a bronze water jacket trunnion, I like to get the feedway profiles all fairly close before the side plates get riveted to anything. This can be slow and painstaking, but the results are worth the effort. It's a lot of this- file here, file there, check the fit, go back and file here, file there, check the fit.... You get the idea. But once the trunnion is riveted in place, your fit across from side plate to trunnion to side plate should be close enough that it just takes a little bit of effort to file and polish the feedway profiles all together, making a nice, smooth surface all the way across.

Also, in reference to Dan's excellent post above, I use a 9/16 reamer to finish the trunnion pintle hole after final assembly, to make sure the bolt goes through smoothly. I am sure Craig used to have some process for that, but time and use can change things. I have found that riveting these things together can create changes in close tolerances requiring all these things to be checked and finished after the assembly is riveted. There is a reason why so many of these manufacturing steps- both in the assembly manuals I've seen at the RIA Museum and on many of the drawings themselves- call for many specs to be set AFTER assembly.
 

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... I am sure Craig used to have some process for that, but time and use can change things. ...
I'm sorry for not fully explaining the above in detail. The M2 30/50 pintle bolt that came with the my '28's original tripod, a '17A1, fit through the trunnion mounting hole correctly. I did not mean to imply there was an issue with my '28's build. The challenge boiled down to the diameter difference between a USGI M2 pintle bolt versus that of an Argie M35 tripod front cross pin. Isn't that interesting? Who would have known?



 

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Dan, thanks for the clarification. I have never shot off my M35 tripod. In fact I have hardly even mounted a gun on it, even for display. It's been wrapped in a packing blanket since I moved from L.A., poor thing. So I don't really have much experience with the difference in the diameter of the bolt versus pin, but that would have surprised me as well. One would think that is all the same, but then.....
 

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Tell me the Story about the " Model 37"... Marking...on your sideplate please.

I've got a 28 plate on order ( HALO) that should arrive sometime this month.

Looking to get it engraved properly and have a good reference of a guy to do this.

Yours pictured above is the cleanest and i guess most popular per Google.

I'm not all up to date on these 28's yet and looking for the proper markings to put on the RSP.

My LSP is Argentine marked.....Where I get confused is ..It has the 1928 Colt profile radius "sharp " bend/curve

just in front of where the Bottom plate is attatched. vs the Argentine shallow radius.

I'll try and link a pic of what I have...and perhaps get some input on what my New RSP should "say".

I should note that I've read many articles about your particular gun..various forums etc.

It is Nice...and seems you have a good bit of knowledge on the History of these.

I can Not find a pic of your gun "out" of the cradle to see a full view of your RSP and check which profile it may be.

Dan in Oregon



Link to pics of my LSP. Its the First set of pics in the upper part of this AD

http://1919a4.com/showthread.php?54...t-Hand-Side-Plates-with-Top-and-Bottom-Plates
 

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Tell me the Story about the " Model 37"... Marking...on your sideplate please.
I've got a 28 plate on order ( HALO) that should arrive sometime this month.
Looking to get it engraved properly and have a good reference of a guy to do this.
Yours pictured above is the cleanest and i guess most popular per Google.
I'm not all up to date on these 28's yet and looking for the proper markings to put on the RSP.
My LSP is Argentine marked.....Where I get confused is ..It has the 1928 Colt profile radius "sharp " bend/curve
just in front of where the Bottom plate is attatched. vs the Argentine shallow radius.
I'll try and link a pic of what I have...and perhaps get some input on what my New RSP should "say".
I should note that I've read many articles about your particular gun..various forums etc.
It is Nice...and seems you have a good bit of knowledge on the History of these.
I can Not find a pic of your gun "out" of the cradle to see a full view of your RSP and check which profile it may be.
Dan in Oregon
Link to pics of my LSP. Its the First set of pics in the upper part of this AD
http://1919a4.com/showthread.php?54...t-Hand-Side-Plates-with-Top-and-Bottom-Plates
The "Model 37" marking was done because the RSP used was originally destined for an M37 Browning build. When no M37 parts kits were forthcoming, Craig Jordon decided to use these Group Industries RSPs to build water cooled guns using the recently arrived Argentine parts kits. Either Mr. Jordon or Group Industries petitioned the NFA Branch and they allowed the building of these M37 RSPs onto the Argentine kits. One caveat was that the model name/number of the original RSP registration needed to be engraved and visible. Hence the "Model 37" engraving.

Interestingly, the Group Industries name also needed to be engraved and visible on the RSP as well. That information was engraved on the front bottom edge of the RSP. Here is an example from another RSP.



To be perfectly clear, I refer to my Model 37 as an "ersatz" gun. The left, right, and bottom plates are patterned after a 1919A4/1917A1 gun. They are totally incorrect for an original '28 Argentine Colt. But these components were available at the time this weapon was constructed, so they were used instead of locating the correctly patterned parts. This weapon is a hodge-podge of pieces and parts. While it looks good and performs well, it is inaccurate as to a '28 Colt build.
 

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The "Model 37" marking was done because the RSP used was originally destined for an M37 Browning build. When no M37 parts kits were forthcoming, Craig Jordon decided to use these Group Industries RSPs to build water cooled guns using the recently arrived Argentine parts kits. Either Mr. Jordon or Group Industries petitioned the NFA Branch and they allowed the building of these M37 RSPs onto the Argentine kits. One caveat was that the model name/number of the original RSP registration needed to be engraved and visible. Hence the "Model 37" engraving.

Interestingly, the Group Industries name also needed to be engraved and visible on the RSP as well. That information was engraved on the front bottom edge of the RSP. Here is an example from another RSP.



To be perfectly clear, I refer to my Model 37 as an "ersatz" gun. The left, right, and bottom plates are patterned after a 1919A4/1917A1 gun. They are totally incorrect for an original '28 Argentine Colt. But these components were available at the time this weapon was constructed, so they were used instead of locating the correctly patterned parts. This weapon is a hodge-podge of pieces and parts. While it looks good and performs well, it is inaccurate as to a '28 Colt build.

Thanks Dan

Makes perfect sense now:help:

I've studied the 37's and own one....should a put the pieces together on that.
Done a bit of reading on the Group 37 plates...I confess..I was drinking.

On the Bottom plate.....I had a Dream late last nite and realized..something was amiss.

I now have a pretty good understanding of your particular weapon..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still wondering what to engrave on my new sideplate.


If I'm getting the History right.

Colt made a few 1917's.( comercial)..100 maybe less

Then they made a few ( Now called 1928) for Argentina....Which is What I THINK I have.
Has the sharp radius bend where the bottom edge of side plate steps down for the "internal" bottom plate.

Then the fixtures went to Argentina and they ( argetines) produced the remainder of the 1928's.
These would have the different " shallow bend " profile where the bottom edge of side plate steps down for the "internal" bottom plate.


Sound close or am I way off here??:help:

Russ , Rollin , Charlie , You , Matt, Bob, Albert ..or someone not mentioned may know?

So what should my 1928 Colt/argy plate be engraved with?

Dan in Oregon
 

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How much more difficult is it to build than a regular 1919? I sent my kit out a while ago...actually a long time ago at this point, and still dont have it back. Is there anything thats really difficult or complicated with these? After how much time should I get concerned about the time?
 

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What I am seeing is the Tiny bottom Plate Rivets as the main difference.

Seems pretty much the same as a 1919 aside from that.

And then theres the whole..How do you want to " finish " it..Blued or Other?

I'm still undecided on this aspect.....
 

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Thanks Dan

Makes perfect sense now:help:

I've studied the 37's and own one....should a put the pieces together on that.
Done a bit of reading on the Group 37 plates...I confess..I was drinking.

On the Bottom plate.....I had a Dream late last nite and realized..something was amiss.

I now have a pretty good understanding of your particular weapon..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still wondering what to engrave on my new sideplate.


If I'm getting the History right.

Colt made a few 1917's.( comercial)..100 maybe less

Then they made a few ( Now called 1928) for Argentina....Which is What I THINK I have.
Has the sharp radius bend where the bottom edge of side plate steps down for the "internal" bottom plate.

Then the fixtures went to Argentina and they ( argetines) produced the remainder of the 1928's.
These would have the different " shallow bend " profile where the bottom edge of side plate steps down for the "internal" bottom plate.


Sound close or am I way off here??:help:

Russ , Rollin , Charlie , You , Matt, Bob, Albert ..or someone not mentioned may know?

So what should my 1928 Colt/argy plate be engraved with?

What I am seeing is the Tiny bottom Plate Rivets as the main difference.

Seems pretty much the same as a 1919 aside from that.

And then theres the whole..How do you want to " finish " it..Blued or Other?

I'm still undecided on this aspect.....

Dan in Oregon
How much more difficult is it to build than a regular 1919? I sent my kit out a while ago...actually a long time ago at this point, and still dont have it back. Is there anything thats really difficult or complicated with these? After how much time should I get concerned about the time?
Trying to answer a bunch of this all at once here. To start, the Colt 1917 production. According to Dolf's inspection of the Colt's records, they made 2500 Model of 1917 guns for Uncle Sam in the 1918 period through the end of the war, and probably running over into early the next year. This compared to about 48,000 at N.E. Westinghouse and just under 20,000 at Remington. Orders for about 30,000 more guns were cancelled after the war was wrapped up, so you have roughly 70,000 total 1917 production. By the early 20s, Colt's did regain exclusive production rights and continued to produce models commercially. Most customers are other governments or companies- such as aircraft manufacturers who were also supplying various governments- with relatively few guns sold to private individuals. Much of this is listed in Dolf's Vol. I, which everyone here should have. There is a Model 1919 Water Cooled that looks to be identical to the 1917 military gun, followed by 1924 models and, eventually, the 1928. At some point in the 20s, Colt's adopted a version of the receiver construction first seen on a handful of prototype models made at Remington. Pics are in Dolf's Vol. I if you want to see. This is where the redesign of the bottom plate begins, no longer the "dovetail" style construction but rather a square rail and slot with an extension below the normal receiver bottom to allow for the six small domed rivets. This basic design was the standard at the time when the first contracts with Argentina were signed. That was fulfilled over several years, in the 1930s. The total is around 926 guns produced in Hartford, followed by the licensing of production in Argentina some time later. I have not seen any figures on how many were manufactured in Argentina. The thing to bear in mind is that this same basic model was being produced for all customers during that period, Argentina being simply the largest single purchaser. Caliber and minor details would vary for customer needs, but otherwise the Argentine 1928 is really just your basic commercial Colt water cooled gun of the period. Markings would, of course, be among the variables. The kits we have been dealing with here are all brought over from Argentina, a mix of both Colt's and Argentine manufacture.

Dan, you have it correct that the smaller radius, forward of the bottom plate joint, is the Colt's pattern, while the larger radius is indicative of Argentine mfg. In drawing up the programming for the RSPs at Halo, I provided Mike with samples of both versions for examination. Also, the Colt's made left plates should have the Colt's markings under the panoramic sight bracket, which markings are not found on Argentine LSPs.

As for engraving, the markings on MG34_Dan's gun above are the work of Craig Jordan, and he has done versions of that for me, some of my customers, and I have referred him out to many here. This is his own design, and as of now I am not aware of anyone with the actual Argentine crest engraving service on the market. Though I have someone digitizing that from an original, for a hand engraving job, there is a possibility that it can be converted into something that can be used for a CNC or laser method. I'll keep track of that, but it won't happen overnight.

So as to how to do the markings, you just have to decide what you want. Craig has a couple of variations, with either the Rampant Colt or a coat-of-arms graphic of his own creation. Both look very nice. If anyone else knows of who might be doing the original Argentine crest markings, feel free to let us know. On finish, some form of bluing is appropriate. I wouldn't park one, but that's me. I prefer the rust bluing of course. I don't like bright polished bluing, but that can be done if you want to do the metal prep or pay someone to do it for you. (It won't be me!)

To Belty's question, I don't know who you sent your gun to. I have a couple of 1928 builds that are far too long in the tooth here. Two reasons: one does need different riveting and bucking tooling for the bottom plate assembly, and I have not forced myself to finish making that stuff. Second, the amount of metal prep simply for a satin rust bluing is very time consuming and my least favorite kind of work, so I tend to put it off. But I'll be knocking those two out in the next few weeks because I made the commitments and need to follow through. But these are more work, if you are going to make them look good, than any standard 1919 build. Work of the tedious kind, which is why I have always been reluctant to take 1928 builds in. I can't just stick them together, I have to bring them up to my standards. Far easier to do that on new metal than this old, well worn, beat up stuff. Call me lazy, I won't argue. It's true, lol. But delays in building, be it me or whoever has your kit, are usually related to prioritizing one's time. I've not always been good at that, but other builders have had these issues too. Biggest thing is that they need to be willing to keep in touch, return e-mails and phone calls. Good luck with your project.
 

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Man, am I late to the party.

Dan - Don't know why you had to hone the trunnion. Like Rollin, I have always used a reamer after riveting. Original trunnion bolts have always slid through nicely with minimum clearance. Here's to brake hones!!!:drink:
 

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How much more difficult is it to build than a regular 1919? I sent my kit out a while ago...actually a long time ago at this point, and still dont have it back. Is there anything thats really difficult or complicated with these? After how much time should I get concerned about the time?
John Mcguire built my 28, I shipped it on Monday and got it back to my house on Friday. I would have built my own but needed the side plate machined for the original drive spring and wanted it done right. The guy is a pleasure to deal with and went the extra mile in every way. How can you not send builds to one of the 2 or 3 premo builders that post on this site! The only thing that would take longer in my opinion is if you were having it blued. Other than that it's no more difficult.

Brad - Big44maghunter
 

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John Mcguire built my 28, I shipped it on Monday and got it back to my house on Friday. I would have built my own but needed the side plate machined for the original drive spring and wanted it done right. The guy is a pleasure to deal with and went the extra mile in every way. How can you not send builds to one of the 2 or 3 premo builders that post on this site! The only thing that would take longer in my opinion is if you were having it blued. Other than that it's no more difficult.

Brad - Big44maghunter
First, let me say that this is my personal opinion. Please don’t get me wrong, both John Mcguire and Rollin offer great service and a quality product. Both did work for me and I would go back to them. By analogy, John builds Fords and Rollin builds BMWs (well, maybe a Bentley). The project management triple constraint triangle applies. My point is that when you select a builder, you need to decide whether you want a Ford or a BMW. There is no intent to “dis” anyone here. It is just my observation.
 

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The builder I sent to does nice work. His photos look great and people like his builds. Its the time frame that has me concerned. Its been over 2 years with excuse after excuse.

First, let me say that this is my personal opinion. Please don’t get me wrong, both John Mcguire and Rollin offer great service and a quality product. Both did work for me and I would go back to them. By analogy, John builds Fords and Rollin builds BMWs (well, maybe a Bentley). The project management triple constraint triangle applies. My point is that when you select a builder, you need to decide whether you want a Ford or a BMW. There is no intent to “dis” anyone here. It is just my observation.
 

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The builder I sent to does nice work. His photos look great and people like his builds. Its the time frame that has me concerned. Its been over 2 years with excuse after excuse.
Why not just get it back and send it to someone else?
 

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Why not just get it back and send it to someone else?
I recently asked for my parts kit back. I also traded a Vickers kit plus some cash to pay for the build cost plus bluing, side plate etc. . I dont know how far along he is Im also not the only one who is waiting for a build from this guy.
 
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