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In reading this string, it seems there is confusion over terminology. OP is ( I think from his description) talking about the cartridge guides held in on the left rear and left front by the belt holding pawl pin. NOT the Right rear riveted cartridge stop. conversely, the Answers seem to focus on the RIGHT rear riveted stop. Pics with circles and arrows are almost a must since the answers do not seem to line up with questions. OP may not be aware that the trunnion must be milled to fit the larger 308 belt holding pawl- it is not a drop in part. The canted cartridges sound more like the bullet tip is hanging up in the front stop - but without pics, this is hard to verify or visualize - also, ammunition seating depth in the links can cause problems if he still has the 30-06 right Cartridge stop in place. Photos would also quickly identify this issue.
Or I could just be confused - it happens.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
It was a Israeli kit, I was replying that the 1917 top cover is original and un modified
Okay, but it had the front and rear cartridge guides and the 7.62 belt hold pawl.
I have a 30-06 feed tray setup except for the right rear cartridge stop to start with. I may still need to open up the front and/or rear cartridge guides for the 7.62.
If I slide a loaded belt through the tray, the rounds clear the guides. If I lay one round over the belt hold pawl, close the top cover and retract the bolt so the round is advanced to the extractor, the next round cants on the feed tray and binds. I'm wondering if the 30-06 belt hold pawl is contributing to this.
I've got a Israeli top cover and parts on the way, but I would still like to get a Israeli pawl bracket.
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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I am thinking the problem is not the 30-06 feed and belt holding pawls, based on not only my experience, but MG34_Dan and GBYENKO as well. We have all run 7.62 successfully with 30-06 feed and/or holding pawls. Before modifying everything, I would suggest changing the spring in the belt holding pawl. Usually this happens with Israeli kits, not a USGI receiver like yours. But the Israelis used a gawd-awful heavy spring under the holding pawl, and we used to have to change those out on new builds all the time. That is something worth trying first. I can send you a new spring to try, no cost.

If it does come to changing the pawls, you don't need to replace parts but to modify them as the Israelis did. The belt holding pawl bracket by itself is not enough, as clearance cuts must be made in the left side plate and trunnion to use the wider Izzy holding pawl. I wouldn't go there yet, but if it came to that you just need a good mill and machinist. Same for your top cover. There is just a simple clearance cut to allow for the Israeli belt feed pawl and modified feed slide. No need to swap parts around. I did modify a 1917A1 cover for a customer once. (It kind of hurt, but I did it.) Again, you just need a mill.

In fact, I will send a new belt feed pawl spring along with the holding pawl spring. Let's see if simple stuff makes a difference before surgery is called for. Send me a PM ("conversation") with a mailing address and I'll get those right out.

Rollin
 

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[snip] We have all run 7.62 successfully with 30-06 feed and/or holding pawls.
Not me. Not on either of my guns. In both instances the constant lockups, stoppages, and failures were immediately solved by replacing the topcover/feed pawl/slide with an Izzy unit.

Aside from that, my "inconsistent" feeding issues were related to the belt holding pawl. I took the belt holding pawl spring in both guns, took some heavy-duty wire cutters and cut off about 1/5th of that stupid spring. Can't believe how stiff they were! I've come to the conclusion in troubleshooting other Brownings since, that you should be able to push the belt holding pawl all the way down with your index finger. If you cannot, the spring is too stiff.

Your mileage may vary for both items above.
 

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Not me. Not on either of my guns. In both instances the constant lockups, stoppages, and failures were immediately solved by replacing the topcover/feed pawl/slide with an Izzy unit.

Aside from that, my "inconsistent" feeding issues were related to the belt holding pawl. I took the belt holding pawl spring in both guns, took some heavy-duty wire cutters and cut off about 1/5th of that stupid spring. Can't believe how stiff they were! I've come to the conclusion in troubleshooting other Brownings since, that you should be able to push the belt holding pawl all the way down with your index finger. If you cannot, the spring is too stiff.

Your mileage may vary for both items above.
Your last comment is perfect. These guns have personality. What works perfectly on one gun may be a total headache on the next. It may come to that in this case, that the pawls must be changed, I just want to be certain that is necessary. The feed pawl change would be the next option, as that's just a top cover mod, easy to do. Cutting the pawl bracket, LSP and trunnion is something I hope can be avoided. But you added your belt holding pawl spring experience to mine. Most of our our old So Cal shoots used to get a handful of guys, with their new Allied Armament builds, out for the first time. I started bringing two things to every shoot. One was a bunch of softer springs for the belt holding pawls, and the other were USGI barrel lock springs. (I hate those dogleg Izzy ones.) We always got the guns running fine if they started with problems.
 
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Totally agree. I've seen guns run the gamut of "run anything, no modifications required" to "super finicky, total PITA". Mine were the latter. I think if I didn't have member @Beltfire local to me, I would have sold both and bought a Vickers instead. ;)

I agree that any changes to the feed pawl bracket, trunion, and LSP are absolutely not needed.

Where are you buying your Belt Holding Pawl springs from, @Lucky#13 ??
 

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Where are you buying your Belt Holding Pawl springs from, @Lucky#13 ??
Mr.Maim, I found a commercial source that met the drawing specs almost perfectly. I have supplied some to toolman as well as BMG Parts Co, but if you need any let me know. Have to order a fairly large qty to get a decent price per spring, so that's what I did. I'll be glad to send some if you need spares.
 

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Mr.Maim, I found a commercial source that met the drawing specs almost perfectly. I have supplied some to toolman as well as BMG Parts Co, but if you need any let me know. Have to order a fairly large qty to get a decent price per spring, so that's what I did. I'll be glad to send some if you need spares.
Thank you Lucky, I'm good for now (I think) but I may take you up on that in the future.

I'm really a "buy 1,000" kind of guy anyhow. :sneaky:
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I do hope the springs solve the problem. I happened to remember that when I tried to run 30-06, after I got the headspace dialed in, I had the same issue with rounds canting and hanging up. I thought it was because the rounds I was using (British) were a little longer than USGI.
I never would have guessed that the pawl spring was too stiff. As many different armorer schools that I've been to, and almost every instructor said "If you have a problem, it's probably a spring". Of course this problem isn't fixed yet, but here's hoping.
 

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I also found that the belt alignment in the ammo box mattered on my gun and built cardboard and plastic spacers. They can be seen in the beginning of the video
 

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I do hope the springs solve the problem. I happened to remember that when I tried to run 30-06, after I got the headspace dialed in, I had the same issue with rounds canting and hanging up. I thought it was because the rounds I was using (British) were a little longer than USGI.
I never would have guessed that the pawl spring was too stiff. As many different armorer schools that I've been to, and almost every instructor said "If you have a problem, it's probably a spring". Of course this problem isn't fixed yet, but here's hoping.
Can you push the belt holding pawl all the way down without excessive effort?
 

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Discussion Starter #36
I'll have to say, the belt hold pawl spring is stiff. I can push it down with my index finger, but I can't push it all the way down.
 

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I'll have to say, the belt hold pawl spring is stiff. I can push it down with my index finger, but I can't push it all the way down.
If you've got some inbound from @Lucky#13 you'll be G2G. Otherwise, cut it with wire cutters and stretch it to the same size. Frankly, even 3/4 of a spring from a "clicker" type ballpoint pen would work as a suitable replacement.

The only purpose of the Belt Holding Pawl (BHP) is to keep the belt from falling out of the gun when it is not being advanced by the feed pawl. So, if you set your box right next to your gun like Mr.Happy posted above ^^ or you're using a 1917a1 tripod that has the box also right next to the gun, that belt holding pawl really doesn't need to do much work because the loaded belt it not pulling hard away from the gun, so the spring tension of the BHP can be pretty light. Really light actually.
 

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Mr. Happy is using a 1928 Colt tripod and that being said I use the Colt 28 ammo boxes which were originally for the 7.65 argy round but they also work better for 7.62x51 because the ammo box walls are thicker and that round is slightly shorter than the Argy 7.65
 

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Mr. Happy is using a 1928 Colt tripod and that being said I use the Colt 28 ammo boxes which were originally for the 7.65 argy round but they also work better for 7.62x51 because the ammo box walls are thicker and that round is slightly shorter than the Argy 7.65
Didn't even notice it was on a tripod from the video thumbnail.
 

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Mr. Happy is using a 1928 Colt tripod and that being said I use the Colt 28 ammo boxes which were originally for the 7.65 argy round but they also work better for 7.62x51 because the ammo box walls are thicker and that round is slightly shorter than the Argy 7.65
Yep, what he ^^^ said.
 
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