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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This isn't mine and I do not know the seller!

You gotta be $hitting me! $25K for a Group Industries side plate ersatz Argentine '28! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=502095448

And I quote; "This gun is a must have for any serious Colt collector, happy bidding." Maybe the bidders don't realize it isn't a real Colt. Or, these are shill bids. Who knows? How sad.





This is not a Craig Jordan built weapon.
 

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For those of us not schooled in Argentine Colts, can you give a quick list of what tips you off that it is a plate gun?
 

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Serial number begins with 300, as I believe that all Group Industries sideplates do. These plates are actually registered as M-37s. it also has a 1919 bottom plate, which means that it wasn't built to accept the original 1928 bottom plate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
For those of us not schooled in Argentine Colts, can you give a quick list of what tips you off that it is a plate gun?
Because I own its sibling. and have since 2002.



Craig Jordan did the engraving and my build. Here is a verbatim excerpt I found on the inter-web authored by Mr. Jordan quite some time ago. Forum users' names he had been bickering with have been redacted....

Begin historical interlude:

Wow, there have been more knowledgeable people in this field in the last few years than ever before. (**********) Everybody is an expert. (NOT) The guys you hold on a pedestal in this industry (Goldsmith, Lamont, Kielholz, Brown, Forgett etc.) I have known and shot with for years. I used to go to Knob Creek when they were lucky to get 400 people to show up. Did you know that Kent Lamonts father used to sleep in a sleeping bag on the ground in front of the firing positions at KC? Of course not ... you experts have only been around for 10 or so years! Me - since 1980!! Kent would wake him up in the morning with a burst of gun fire. ***********, Landies used to do business under the Collectors Corner name ... from the basement of his home in Chardon, Ohio. He had no facilities back then to manufacture anything. He subbed out most of the work he acquired. Like M37 plates from Group and those Stainless M16 receivers that Mike got registered and never completed. The M37 sideplates were registered before May '86 but never built into guns for one simple reason. No M37 parts kits were available back then but a plethora (a "bunch" for you (***********) of 1919 and Argentine 28's were. We showed ATF that the basic configuration of the M37 was similar enough to the 1919/17 that they approved the changes. If you look at one of these Group Industries guns you will see that Mike Brown put his original company logo and serial number on what was to be the INSIDE of a built gun. Remove the grip and entrails and you will see, several inches forward, Mike's company logo. If it doesn't have this logo there ... someone has illegally made a new sideplate! In the process of changing these to 1919/17's I engraved Mike's information along the bottom edge of the plate to comply with ATF regulations. Then depending on what the customer ordered I engraved Saginaw Steering Gear, Westinghouse, Buffalo Arms or that fancy Colt logo that you see in Dolf's book! There is a lot of misinformation on these web forums perpetuated by guys like ********* (know it alls) and are the reason I rarely add my .02 cents.

End historical interlude

The rest of the story not mentioned here is at the time Craig's business was Tiffany Arms, so he marked his builds with the crown symbol that is located beneath the lock frame detent hole on the RSP. That symbol is present on my ersatz '28, but not on the weapon in this GB auction.
 

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Thank you Dan. I'll tuck this away in case one shows up in my life at the same time as enough discretionary cash to make the purchase.
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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I suppose it is possible that the seller is that clueless. In any case, any bidder fooled by the description has no one but himself to blame for lack of due diligence. Maybe the seller is dishonest and those were shill bids. I am tempted to call them and see how they react. Good news is it didn't sell, so no one is burned yet, unless the seller got screwed on acquisition. I know Craig Jordan and have 100% confidence in his statements quoted above. Have seen at least one other example of the Mike Brown plates Craig modified and engraved that was loose, not built by him. So most anyone else could have built this piece, excepting Colt's of course!
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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I called and spoke to a couple of guys at the seller's shop. Approaching this on the assumption that they just have misinformation about the gun in question, I offered to help them get up to speed on what they really have. Made it clear I just wanted to help prevent them from having a problem with any buyer who finds it isn't what he thinks it is. They seemed open to the conversation, and may have the owner call. Seems this may be a consignment from a private collector. We'll see how this goes. Have to give them the benefit of the doubt for the moment.
 

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I saw the gun auction and contacted them to let them know they needed a little more research. I had SN 300076 built for me by Bob L back in 1993. I am sure it was a Tiffany Arms gun. Wish I had kept it, it was a work of art.
 

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Definitely my engraving. Must have been one of the many side-plates one of Bob's guys brought down for engraving and waited for the work to be done. Searched my record books and and didn't find it there.

The dark spots on the plate are the welded holes the M37 charging handle bracket went. Also, I only did a couple of guns with the button head rivets on the top plate. It's obvious the welder used a rod that didn't match the plate metal and has aged differently. Can't tell from the pictures if this shows up in the other places welds are needed for the M37 to 17/A4 conversion.

Very few of the guns I built had the original Argentine recoil spring. My builds had the A1 style bottom plates and I modified the pistol grip plates to accept A4 style captive bolt recoil springs and guides. When original USGI A4 bolts were not available, I modified '28 bolts to take the captive spring assembly.

I also chamfer the the charging handle slots rather liberally on my builds as I have had my knuckles filleted on guns others have built.

Now you know why I marked my builds.
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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Well, at least two of us have contacted them to let them know their description is incorrect. What they do about it is up to them. I have mixed feelings about whether or not to try to contact the bidder, but with the new auction going and that $26k bid being still below reserve, there is no sale yet.

So Craig, am I gonna see you next month at the lower range?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Well, at least two of us have contacted them to let them know their description is incorrect. ...
Make that three. I contacted them also. To date, no response has been received.

By the way, if you look closely at the forward RSP and bolt pictures, you can clearly see that this weapon has a .308 right rear cartridge stop installed. At least we can all be rest assured it will feed .308 belted or linked ammo with no issues.



 

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Make that three. I contacted them also. To date, no response has been received.

By the way, if you look closely at the forward RSP and bolt pictures, you can clearly see that this weapon has a .308 right rear cartridge stop installed. At least we can all be rest assured it will feed .308 belted or linked ammo with no issues.



I have yet to see one a Colt rr stop in person, but the izzy rear cart stop extends width of side plate. The one pictured does not appear so (based on picture), stopping at the inside surface of the side plate. Plus the front stop appears to have the correct smaller diameter hole using my eyebrow dial caliper. I honestly have no clue what you all are talking about, being a newb and all.:rofl:
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I have yet to see one a Colt rr stop in person, but the izzy rear cart stop extends width of side plate. The one pictured does not appear so (based on picture), stopping at the inside surface of the side plate. Plus the front stop appears to have the correct smaller diameter hole using my eyebrow dial caliper. I honestly have no clue what you all are talking about, being a newb and all.:rofl:
Commercial 1924 Colt from a couple years ago:





 

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Yeah that's way different. Maybe they cut an izzy down for whatever reason. The captive spring hole on the auction gun looks to be round filed vs milled. Nice looking weapon you just posted:icon23:
 

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After looking at those pictures, I'm not sure the safety will work. With the A1 bottom plate the safety won't go down all the way. On the guns I built, I machined the safety to clear the plate and rear rivet.

I also removed the front sight on my builds to facilitate an even polishing of the jacket and end cap. The rivet holes on the endcap were then tapped and the sight hood holes countersunk and screws and Loctite were used to hold everything together.
 
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