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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I recently received a 1919 extractor that is a bit different than the others that I have. Can someone shed some light on the extractor on the left?


Below are three extractors: (updating for future reference)

Left - Early WWI production Westinghouse and Remington _______ Middle - KMP ______________________ Right - SG






Left - Early WWI production Westinghouse and Remington _________________ Middle - KMP ______________________ Right - SG




Left - Early WWI production Westinghouse and Remington _________________ Middle - KMP ______________________ Right - SG




Left - Early WWI production Westinghouse and Remington _________________ Middle - KMP

 

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Left one appears to be WW1 era, Look fir R in triangle or W in circle. If no mark possibly a Colt, usualky stamped on rear of extractor hook and along the extractor arm
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Boy you nailed that one right on the head! Both marks present and accounted for. The Circle W is on the cartridge ejector and the Triangle R is on the extractor arm.

I'm assuming that the Circle W is Westinghouse. What is the Triangle R ?






 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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GSG is so good, he can tell the mfg at a glance! :D Though there is an obvious clue that distinguishes WWI mfg from everything WWII and later. So that leaves only two possible markings, the Westinghouse W in a circle, or the R in a triangle which represents Remington. Colt's was the third maker from the period, but made so few guns that we have only been able to put together a theory on Colt's parts from rare observations over time. Having found some WWI era parts with no markings, we have conclude that Colt's parts were not marked, and this distinguishes them from the R and W parts where we have well established patterns.

Added note: Upon looking at your pics again, you have the three distinct periods of the extractor pin represented. The WWI pins were full length, going through the full width of the bolt. The WWII pins were like your KMP, where they were shortened to a mid-length. Your SG extractor shows the short pin, mostly associated with the 1950s production. That last revision may have come late in WWII, I'd have to check. If so, there may be late war extractors from SG or other makes with the short pin from the factory. However, I have seen a number of WWII extractors where the pin was obviously shortened later, to the post war spec like your SG has. No production was done at Saginaw past summer of 1945, so the piece must date from that time, regardless of the pin length.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Excellent information Lucky thank you very much for providing the background. Interesting that they made the extractor pin shorter and shorter throughout the 1917 and 1919's service life, I guess they figured that the pivot was not load bearing to the extent that it required a full-length pivot pin and to save steel they just used shorter and shorter pivot pins. Right?

Also interesting that Colt's didn't mark their parts. Triangle with R is Remington, I should have known. THANKS!
 

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Quick follow-up: I received a PM from fastmonkey87 that he's building a correct 1917A1 so we've agreed to a 1:1 trade for an SG extractor of the same condition for me. I got lucky receiving a unique part and am more than happy to trade with someone that is trying to complete a manufacturer-parts-correct build. :thumbup:

Many thanks for Gulf State Guard and Lucky#13 for helping to identify this part and ultimately to help it find it's true home: on a 1917A1 !!
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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Excellent information Lucky thank you very much for providing the background. Interesting that they made the extractor pin shorter and shorter throughout the 1917 and 1919's service life, I guess they figured that the pivot was not load bearing to the extent that it required a full-length pivot pin and to save steel they just used shorter and shorter pivot pins. Right?

Also interesting that Colt's didn't mark their parts. Triangle with R is Remington, I should have known. THANKS!
So far as I can presume, you are correct on the likely reason for shortening the pin. If we could access all the ECO and OO documents from the Ordnance Dept records, we would probably find the detailed notes for all revisions. We have a number of the ECOs, which are orders for a specific revision, on certain components we have researched, but it would take too much effort to do it all. Some ECOs give a reason, some refer to an OO document, the stash of which remains hidden from us so far.

Remington, Colt's PFA and N.E. Westinghouse were the three WWI makers of the 1917 water cooled, totaling about 70,000 guns. All stopped production in the few months after the war, finishing up assembling guns through the early part of 1919. For the 1917, that was the last manufactured until 1941, when the A1 was the new model and RIA had the exclusive. The first 1919s are a Tank gun, on the same "dovetail" receiver as the 1917, and those were made only during a short period after the first war, as well as some Aircraft models. Probably only about 5,000-10,000 of these models were made. But essentially, those makers are all out of the Browning business within a year or so after the war ended, with maybe a little R&D work being done for a while. When new guns were needed, all new makers were lined up in 1940-41, for the current models such as the 1919A4 and 1917A1. Many thousands of 1919A4s and 1917A1s are converted WWI guns, so that is why you might see a Westy or Remington gun in WWII specs, plus the rare Colt's. That's Colt's, who made but 2,500 1917s, and a small number of the 1919 Tank guns, did not mark their parts is just a working theory, but all observed, anecdotal evidence I have been able to find indicates this to be the case. Certain known Colt's markings- such as on ANM2 and M2 series guns, do not show up until much later. Or so I believe as of now.
 

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Quick follow-up: I received a PM from fastmonkey87 that he's building a correct 1917A1 so we've agreed to a 1:1 trade for an SG extractor of the same condition for me. I got lucky receiving a unique part and am more than happy to trade with someone that is trying to complete a manufacturer-parts-correct build. :thumbup:

Many thanks for Gulf State Guard and Lucky#13 for helping to identify this part and ultimately to help it find it's true home: on a 1917A1 !!
I received the Remington one today and it looks much better than the pictures show. I know Russ will be happy when he receives it!
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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I am assuming the "clue" is the placement of the capture dowel for the plunger? J
Nice observation! I had to go look at the pics again and, sure enough, that would look like a major difference at a glance. But it is the long pivot pin that is the real clue. The retaining pin for the plunger is simply ground flush on the other two extractors. The WWI extractor shows the staking mark, which is actually most common. The drawing for those pins actually has that divot on both ends, to aid in staking. The flush ground retaining pins I don't see much, no matter the vintage of the assembly. Even though you were off, I am impressed that you picked up on that detail, which I had not. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I received the Remington one today and it looks much better than the pictures show. I know Russ will be happy when he receives it!
Outstanding! I received my SG from you a few days ago and it is also perfect. Glad that this round-robin is going to make three people happy! :D
 
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