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Okay,


Here is the story. I started this group buy on October 31,2008 anticipating to sell 200-500 recievers at $78 each. After BHO got elected as president my email, PM's and phone went absolutley crazy and 2-3 hundred turned into 2-3 thousand just that fast. Orders were coming in the mail in bulk and even more orders were being placed via credit card. My mom (Dianne) and I had to explore other options to keep up with all the paperwork, so we hired another person to help. I asked for all orders and payments to be in my November 16,2008. I continued to get a few last minute payments in the mail, but I got several hundred more emails, PM's, and phone calls from people asking to get in after the 11-16 cutoff date. I stayed in contact with Lisa at Doublestar during all of this to make sure that there was not going to be a price increase. After all contact from the people that wanted to get in the buy but were to late I decided I would place an order large enough to cover what was already paid for and plenty of extra's to offer to those people that were late. I decide that I would up the price to $82 each since I was going to be responsible for the funds if they were ready to ship to me but were not prepaid for by customers. I placed an order with Lisa at Doublestar on 11-24-08 for 4000 stripped lower receivers at an agreed upon price. I told her it might be a little more then I need, but I wanted to make sure I was locked in at the price she gave me. I asked her at that point if I needed to pay for them up front and she said, no I could pay for them when they ship. She told me that they would ship in appx. 60-90 days, but could not give me a definate date. The Credit Card problem hit somewhere in this time frame and it created even more stress, paperwork, and time on our part. You all seemed to be understanding about the problem and as a group we worked through it. I allowed the $82 price for a short time before I up the price again to $85 due to the time I was investing in this group buy and to help cover the cost of the hired help and absorbe some of what I lost due to the CC fiasco. About a month or so ago (the first of January) I spoke to Lisa at Doublestar to check the status of the order. It appeared we were still looking at another 30-60 days before we even saw the first receiver because of some problems with the coaters. About 2 weeks ago I placed a phone call to Doublestar and talked to Teresa. I told her that I wanted to check the status of the order and see how long we were looking at to start seeing the receivers. Teresa told me that they could produce about 1500 receivers a week and also said that there was a bottleneck at the coaters. I expressed to her that I wanted to send a payment in so that when some were ready to ship they would not have to wait on funds. At that point I had a $100,000 cashiers check overnighted to Doublestar about a week and a half ago. Last Thursday 1-15-09 I went to the Shot Show and spoke to Jesse. We talked for a few minutes about the order. He said that I would most likley get the order in multiple shipments. I told him I was okay with that, and asked him when I may start seeing those shipments. He could not give me a definate, but he expected around 30-60 days possibly sooner (like a couple weeks). He NEVER mentioned a price increase. Saturday my dad went to the Shot Show, however I did not go. When I saw him later he told me about the price increase and briefed me on the conversation he had with Teresa. I will let him tell about that conversation as I was not there to hear it first hand. I quickly got an ill feeling at my stomach and ruined the rest of my vacation with my wife and kids. I contacted Lisa on 1-19-09 to verify that the $100,000 cashiers check had been received (I recorded most of this converstion on my cell phone). I asked her what my balance was and if I could get an invoice. She placed me on hold and went and talked to Teresa. When Lisa came back to the phone she said that Teresa had talked to my dad at the shot show about the$8 per lower price increase. I told her that I was under the understanding that the order for 4000 placed on 11-24 was locked in at the price we disscussed. She said that there price got increased and she would have Jesse call me. Today, I received the call from Jesse which I recorded also. He told me that the price increase was due to a price increase from the coaters and shipping. I expressed to him my situation and asked him if we could come to a comprimise even if I had to drive to Kentucky to pick them up. Jesse called me back later after he crunched some #'s and lowered the price a little to about $6 if I pick them up. Jesse then called me again this evening (again recorded) and he told me the reason for price incread was because he had 2 manufactures making the lowers a primary and a secondary. He ended up making the secondary his primary, because he was not getting anything from the original primary and that is where the $8 price increase came from. He also told me that there are a couple thousand ahead of me so I should be getting some type of order in about 4 weeks or so. He said he could honnor the original price but he would have to have the order from his original primary and it could take 6-8 months or if I wanted to pay the price increase it would be sooner. So here is a run down of my thoughts.

* Franks71vw has or is checking with a manufacture which I am not opposed to, but lets think this out.
1. I am not about to get into a whole nother mess of waiting.
2. What will be the later value of a Never heard of lower.

If Franks71VW knows of someone that I can talk to I would be happy to explore that route. However, I am going to finish this buy and it will not be passed off to anyone else although I appreciate the offer.

* I am getting messages from people wanting to cancell their order all together and want a refund. This WILL cost me money, but I will do it. I have a large chunk of the money tied up at Doublestar right now and if people start canceling then I will have to have Doublestar refund my payment which will cause even more chaos. Plus me getting money orders and postage.


* If you want to continue with Doublestar it will cost an additional $6 per receiver. It is still cheaper then the other lowers that are out there, but poor businessmanship on their part.

* I do not have a written contract with Doublestar but I do have recorded phone conversation which acknowledge the verbal contract we had. I can explore legal avenues, but this may prolong the situation.

* I am open for suggestions and hope to have a decission by the end of the weekend.


***I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT IS EXPRESSED THAT I AM NOT THE ONE INCREASING THE PRICE AND THAT IT IS DIRECT FROM DOUBLESTAR. PLEASE DO NOT BE MAD AT ME AS I AM ONLY TRYING TO GET EVERYONE THE BEST PRICE POSSIBLE. I AM TRULLY SORRY THIS HAS TURNED INTO SUCH A MESS AND I HAVE COMMITED MYSELF TO A STRESS CENTER I MEAN TO FINISHING THIS BUY. I HOPE YOU ALL WILL CONTINUE TO TRUST IN ME AND WORK WITH ME TO COMPLETE THIS.***


A FEW PEOPLE SEEM TO BE QUESTIONING MY CAPABILITY, HOSESTY, INTEGRITY, AND MORALS. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY I AM HANDLING THINGS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK FOR A REFUND AND MOVE ON. I HAVE DONE MY BEST TO KEEP EVERYONE UP TO DATE AND BEEN HONEST ABOUT EVERYTHING. THERE HAVE BEEN SOME EMAILS AND PM'S I HAVE MISSED OR NOT HAD THE CHANCE TO RESPOND TO. PLEASE ACCEPT MY APPOLOGIES FOR THIS.


PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS THREAD AS A ***** SESSION.


HERE IS ALL MY INFO:

CHRIS PENLEY
18034 CRISTIN WAY
NOBLESVILLE, IN 46062
317-260-8037 cell

I would ask that if you feel it necessary to call me to please do so between 3pm and 7pm Monday-Friday Indiana (EST) time. I do have a wife and 2 children that I commit my life to before this group buy, so please be patient.


PLEASE LOOK A COUPLE POST DOWN FOR AN UPDATE........


2-8-09 Anyone that has requested a refund via pm/e-mail a check has been mailed.
 

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Thanks for the update Chris,

I really am quite pissed off at J&T/Doublestar now as are other people so I'm sure there will be some repercussions for them.

I currently have 2 1/2 kits on back order through them after a couple months of waiting, as well as the 15 lowers here so after all the good reviews I'd heard about them this is pretty upsetting.

As far as extra payment, I guess I might as well just pay the extra $$ since it's not your fault and I'm damn sure not going to make you pay for their mistakes, but I wish we could find a way to let them really know how we feel.

Are you wanting payment for the extra $ now, or do you want to wait until it gets sorted?

Josh
 

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Thanks for the update Chris.

Crappy deal on their part.

Ill go along with what ever the group decides. I dont mind paying the extra $6/lower if I have to, as long as I get my order.

thanks,
clay
 

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Discussion Starter #5
1-25-09 update

THIS IS A CUT AND PASTE FROM MY POST ON PAGE 21 AS TO MY DECISION


Folks,


I have read everyones responses and here is the decision I have made.

I am going to stick this out with Doublestar/J&T Distributing. I feel Jesse is only doing what he has to as he could have jacked the price $20 per receiver and easily have gotten it from other people. I agree things could have been done different and communication between Doublestar and myself could/should of been a little better. Jesse is trying to run a business and provide the best customer service possible while still maintaing a reasonably priced and quality product. Demand for the future AWB products is rediculous and it is our own faults we waited this long to pursue the purchuse of these items. Jesse and I spoke last week and as he stated before he is willing to honor the original price, however I refuse to wait that long. I am confident that Jesse (Doublestar) will do all that is in their power to start getting these receivers to me in the next 4-6 weeks. I am going to put a call into Jesse tomorrow about trying to get something in writing about a price and estimated delivery date. I know it is hard to set anything in stone but something needs to be a little better then keep saying 60-90 days. You can all do as you wish with Doublestar in the future, but I will continue to do business with them as I believe they are one of the only ones that did not gouge their receiver and other product prices. My family and I have done business with J&T in the past and I want to continue to do business in the future with no hard feelings. Each of you are entitled to your own opinions and I would ask that no further personal opions be expressed in this thread, as it has gotten a little out of hand. I have persude the option of going straight to the manufactures, but lets get real here people, if you think that the manufature is going to jump us to the front of the line or if you think he will not just tell us what we want to hear to get our order then you need to WAKE UP. Doublestar, Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS, ect... have way more money and history with these manufatures then any of us do. I will stand with Doublestar this time, but I will lose faith if they were to do it again. I feel that since the word came straight from Jesse he will see to it that we are taken care of. I have discussed some other items with him that he is willing to try and get me the best price possible and that he trully is sorry for the price increase on this particular item. I understand if you wish to cancell your order but please be advised I will not start refunds until next Saturday. If you want a refund please make the subject line of your message "REFUND". I will try to stay more on top of my pm's and emails from here on out as I have gotten a little behind. I still have receivers available and will continue to take orders, but I will not take any new orders until 2-1-09. Here is how the price increase is going to work.....

if you payed:

$78 each please send an additional $6 per lower

$82 each please send an additional $6 per lower

$85 each please send an additional $5 per lower

I will sell any extras at $90 each until I run out...

I need to receive this money ASAP, because if Doublestar has them ready to ship and I do not have the money we could get screwed. I will also need all of your info with this payment. PLEASE MAKE SURE TO MAKE WHAT YOU ARE PAYING CLEAR!!!!!

I will be picking these up in Kentucky with my FFL (mom) when they become available. This is why the $8 increase Doublestar put in place across the board has turned into a $6 increase. As I have said many times before I am not in this for a large profit, but for the comunnity we share.

If anyone has a problem with my decision I will speak to you about it so please feel free to contact me.


****THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT****

IF YOU POSTED THIS GB ON ANY OTHER BOARD PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO POST THIS UPDATE THERE ALSO. I KNOW PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE THIS AND I AM GOING TO BE STUCK SO YOU WILL NOT GET YOUR ORDER UNTIL YOU PAY THE EXTRA. IF I GET TO YOUR NAME AND YOU HAVE NOT PAYED THE EXTRA I AM SKIPPING YOU AND GOING TO THE NEXT PERSON. I CAN NOT TAKE THE TIME TO TRACK YOU DOWN.

I will be accepting Zoloft donations if you have them as the rum is not doing the job anymore. Maybe I need to move on to sctoch.....



Chris Penley
18034 Cristin Way
Noblesville, IN 46062
317-260-8037 cell phone after 3pm (est) M-F
 
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I say you decide, I can raise the extra 6, 8 or whatever per lower, but if they do this I will consider never buying doublestar products again. Lowers in hand are better than promised ones.
ETA I would rather pay 8 than make you do extra work and pick them up.
 

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Chris, Thanks for the update. Lets' just pay the six bucks, get it done and move on. It's like fighting a parking ticket, not worth the time. We all can decide on our own if we'll ever do business again with Doublestar. I won't.
Thanks for your effort.
 

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I have no problem sending in $60 to cover the diff. If you can get a letter from DS that they wont just collect the $ and still make us wait 6 months.
 

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I say Screw them and go with a direct manufacturer. At this point you can not trust them.

And if I had only ordered a couple of lowers, it would not be a big deal but this will end up costing me over $100.


Also, My order was in two parts so what is the increase? I already paid an upcharge for 12 lowers so is this on top of that?
 

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if we try to go with a different manufacturer, it may take way longer than it would to just finish this order with DS ..just my .02

i'm not opposed to sending an extra $6 plus a little extra for your effort
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The $6 would be to each receiver no matter what you originaly paid. I can not ask the people that payed before the original cut off date to send more money and not the people who payed later. If that was the case then it did them no good to pay early and it would be completly unfair.

Anyone have access to any manufatures info and I will contact them tomorrow.
 

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The $6 would be to each receiver no matter what you originaly paid. I can not ask the people that payed before the original cut off date to send more money and not the people who payed later. If that was the case then it did them no good to pay early and it would be completly unfair.

Anyone have access to any manufatures info and I will contact them tomorrow.
Check out the options with other manufacrurers such as LAR since they will probably be happy to get an order for 4000 .

Adding the extra $6 puts them over $90. That really burns since when ordered, there were several models available for less than that without the wait.
 

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Chris there are lots of ways of looking at this.

1) $8 for something we will get in 30-60 days and then SCREW DS on the internet and via friends is probably the best bet. There are a lot of us and this much bad publicity is sure to hurt them. One or two people bitching is not much but there are a lot more than just a few of us.

2) Can they really be trusted now, they have been making INTEREST on OUR $100,000. Tell them to pound dirt and come up with the lowers as agreed upon. Figure out the total time they have held the money and figure out the average interest rate they can't say they are coming up short. They have been making lowers for how long and just NOW they have a problem with the supplier? Sounds like a bunch of bs.

3) If you chose to go with #1 I will support it ONLY if it's on a signed contract. Remeber contracts are worthless unless you are willing to hire a lawyer and go after them. The contract needs to include the final prices and delivery time and be signed by the principal of the company. Also a note that any attorney's fees involved due to non-compliance will be part of any actions taken against them and to be paid in full. I have learned from real estate and building the hard way! Also that a full refund will be made of ALL FUNDS if the lowers can not be delivered as stated for ANY REASON. They can drag their feet and in one flick of the pen BO can sign an "E Order" and we get the shaft. It can happen tomorow, next month, 1 day short of 4 years, or NEVER but can we risk it ?

4) I would MUCH rather go with another supplier right now but only if someone is found that is reasonable in the delivery time, price. I am not willing to pay for something that may be delivered next December. Remember we are rolling the dice here with a race to some unknown date if any.
 

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Chris,

First of all thanks for all of your hard work on this, I know you and your family have been through hell and are hopefully somewhere on the return trip. Sounds like Doublestar is playing on your fears and trying to squeeze us for extra money - "Obama is going to pass a ban! better hurry up and send us some extra money in order to get your receivers in time - or you could wait 6 mos." If DoubleStar is indeed getting the finished receivers from LRB, and LRB is willing to handle the deal, then lets just buy them direct from LRB if they are able to deliver in the same amount of time (which it would seem that they should be able to since they would otherwise be shipping the same receivers to DoubleStar). This would cut out the middle man and send a pretty clear message to J&T\DoubleStar. DoubleStar may not care today (because everyone is buying no matter what), but when this settles down, there are several thousand gun owners (and several thousand more curious onlookers online) that will have a bad taste in their mouth when it comes to J&T\DoubleStar. If it is going to introduce gobs of extra work - then screw it, I'll send in my extra $$$. But if LRB says they can take care of it ASAP, deliver in 30 - 60 days, are happy to have our business, and sends a guaranteed pricing invoice, and could possibly mark the lowers "multi" caliber (if it doesn't introduce more time) :) lets go with them!

My .02,

dcwilliams29id
 

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I have tried to stay out of this as much as possible

I talked to Theresa Saturday at the SHOT show, I went in the back of their booth and she gave me a shot of whiskey, probably due to the information she was getting ready to tell me.
She said that the receivers were all being increased across the board by $8 due to an increase in the cost of coating them, I was also told that they make more off completed lowers and rifles than bare receivers and she was concentrating on that.
I was told by Jesse a few minutes earlier that they were over 36,000 rifles behind, he also said that their primary receiver manufacturer reneged on a agreement that was made during the summer, Double Star had told them they wanted to double the size of their order for the coming year and the manufacturer told them it would be no problem then in late November/early December the manufacturer told them they would only get what they got the previous year leaving them short. They contacted their secondary manufacturer to see what they could do and there response was to get another machine to try and pick up the slack.
I was also informed that there were some major distributors trying to jump the line by asking what it would it would take to move to the front to get the guns, Jesse and Theresa both said they should have ordered them several months ago and were not playing that game( I understand the distributor ended writing a 1.5 million check to SIG).

My take on what is going on for what it's worth is this, if the actual receiver manufacturers had the capacity to make more receivers then they would be, the fact DS is 36,000 rifles back ordered leads me to believe the chances of going manufacturer direct with this is next to zero, otherwise they would be filling the back orders now. The fact that major distributors are willing to pay just about any price to move to the front of the line helps confirm this, they just can't make them fast enough at this time to fill the demand and a new person trying to "muscle" in at this point with the manufacturers isn't going to happen. The manufacturers might be willing to say they would be glad to take the order promise the world but lets face facts, the demand is already there and if they had the capacity to fill a 4000 receiver order for a new guy they would already be doing it for their old customers.

This is all I have to say on the subject, I know Chris has been trying hard to bring this all together and I knew when he started it would wind up being a nightmare, this is why I stayed out of it as I am under enough stress as it is, Good Luck in whatever everyone decides to do, Brian
 
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