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Entry level wheeled cannons discussion DD’s

1751 Views 37 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  biffj
Let’s talk entry level cannons that are destructive devices

I don’t consider myself an expert but I feel I am reasonably knowledgeable on the subject. This will be a brief rundown on the more common entry level cannons. Specifically guns with wheels. At some point people may get board with normal guns and machine guns. They want to challenge themselves. Cannons are still the Wild West of shooting. Pretty easy to find your dream machine gun with a couple clicks on the inter web but not a lot of cannons or information about them. To get information you have to make phone calls talk to people go to shoots. Once you have a gun it could take years to get it shooting.

We will start with the 1934 Hotchkiss 25mm. The hotchkiss is probably the most underrated on the list. It is a simple, reliable design. Falling block, very few breach parts. Uses a simple oil shock and spring for recoil. Oil can be poured in to a fill hole on top of the shock. Spare parts will have to be made. Can pretty easily be moved around by one person. original optics are almost impossible but most people use a slightly modified tank optic instead. The hotchkiss and puteaux both fire the 25x194r. It is a high velocity round that is probably the most accurate of the AT guns. Like a giant 220 swift. Original AP ammunition will out penetrate some of the bigger guns as well. Original ammunition can be found. Usually comes in a case of 8. When it comes to reloading people have been known to turn solid brass projectiles or fire the cheaper 25mm bushmaster projectiles. The bushmaster projo dose require some modifications. It is also A lot lighter than the original AP projo. With the lighter projectile an easier to find, smaller grain, faster powders can be used. With the heavier projectiles the only available powder is called super slow. Original primers can be reloaded or a US artillery primer can be used. The US artillery primer is a neat little assembly that contains a .50 cal primer to set off a small black powder charge. It can be reloaded. Never use or build an adapter that simply holds the 50 primer like conventional ammunition. Reloading dies do not necessarily have to be used. If the case is fired in the same gun they usually slide back in. If they were fire formed in a different gun that could be a problem. I like to anneal my brass every 3 shots

1937 Puteaux 25mm. The Puteaux is the hotchkiss younger sibling. They updated the puteaux with a slightly longer barrel, lighter, better center of gravity. One strong person can easily move it around. Unfortunately they also complicated the firing mechanism, breach, and made it extremely difficult to service the oil shock. No spares so extras will have to made and very few original optics. In my opinion the puteaux is a pretty gun. Very French looking. Fired the same ammo as the hotchkiss so all that info is the same.

US 37mm. Unpopular opinion but it is one of my least favorite cannons. If you have a WW2 jeep and you like to be correct,it is a good choice. Also a nice,simple design. No frills kind of gun that dose its job. Easy to move around with one person. Parts are available with more than one guy building replacements. Original optics are available. Cases are pretty common. Also use the US artillery primer that is easy to find. Projectiles are a little more difficult. Original are out there but getting expensive with cartridge collectors grabbing them. A few guys are making them. Usually you are stuck buying a lot or finding them one at a time at random shows. Only powder available to non explosive licensees is the RVO super slow. If you have an explosive license there are other sources.

37mm bofors: my favorite. There are two types that you will see. The 37mm standard bofors and the 37mm long bofors. It is hard to tell the difference in the 2 sometimes chamber or serial numbers are a give away. Only 100 long guns were made so if you see a sub 100 serial number it is most likely a long bofors. The bofors are light with a great center of gravity. They are a well made Swiss design that may not be the simplest but it is easy to learn and disassemble with few tools. The bofors incorporate leather seats on both legs for a shooter and assistant. Great for enjoying a cigar and brandy while shooting you cannon and letting others go for a ride. They also have a muzzle brake so they have quite a bark compared to the US gun. Many of the guns came in to the country with spare parts kits and optics so there are actually plenty of spares. Also a decent amount of cases both long and standard but far more standard. Some original live ammunition as well. Most guns come with a decent supply of extras. Projectiles and powder are the same as the the US 37mm, make your own and super slow powder. Primers are a pain because they are different. Originals can be reloaded but they are a berdan primed so that becomes an issue. It is a non standard berdan primer. Hard to find. However there have been some new made primer assemblies. So that is a plus.

Maybe if I get motivated I will get in to the more advanced DD’s. Could talk a lot more about each of the guns but trying to keep it simple. Aldo note these guns require space both at FFL and when you bring it home. Realistically you will also need a trailer preferably one with a wench for easier loading when you are alone. I have had more than one occasion where I had a running start down my driveway lifting and pushing my cannon only to make in 90 percent up the trailer ramps. Good times.
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We need pictures to go along with the posts!!! We all love pictures!!!
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I had to go DIY. Cannons used to be much harder to find. It was a fun build but I still think about the 105mm that was for sale years ago

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Here's one that the transfer cleared on about a month ago. Nice little gun!
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With these guns, Is there a way to mate brass to a gun’s chamber without dies?
So these all take Shells...Correct.
This means their basicly a Gun?
VS
A Black Powder version......which there is No regulation??

I'm not sure so ..Figured I'd ask here so we all know.


Looking at a nice Machineist? built 2" bore 2 wheeled unit........About a 30" long bore.
Kindy historic looking till He added some sizzor jack for elevation.
Fires with 50 primers ( or 12 ga) I forget. Some homemade tooling and a bunch of lead balls and a mold. Overall its 4' long......artistic taste on the build but looks way solid.
Priceing is difficult........Best I can see on BP units is about a $100 bucks per inch of bore seems the going rate. Anyone have a better /different idea how to price something like this?
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I would be hesitant to buy a home made black powder cannon. Some horror stories out there. Talk to Dave at Seed Artillery, he restores black powder artillery and is really knowledgeable on that stuff. I picked his brain a few times and he is very generous with his knowledge.
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Maybe We need a new thread for those as its not my attention to clog this area with that stuff.
I have a few smaller ones so I know a tiny bit.

Be nice If someone here with any more knowlegde than I started a thread on those.

I'm basicly a greenhorn that knows some of the good and read about lots of the bad.
Dan
I’ve also enjoyed this thread very enlightening. Can you describe the RVO powder grain size I’m curious if you have a picture of it. I’m also very interested in the varied price ranges models you’ve mentioned in just an approximations. Thank you, Aaron
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With these guns, Is there a way to mate brass to a gun’s chamber without dies?
Once a round has been fired in the chamber it will generally go back in the gun with less effort. At a time in my earlier days I was known to assist the loading of shells with a sledgehammer. The old persuader was pretty good at sizing out of spec brass.
So these all take Shells...Correct.
This means their basicly a Gun?
VS
A Black Powder version......which there is No regulation??

I'm not sure so ..Figured I'd ask here so we all know.


Looking at a nice Machineist? built 2" bore 2 wheeled unit........About a 30" long bore.
Kindy historic looking till He added some sizzor jack for elevation.
Fires with 50 primers ( or 12 ga) I forget. Some homemade tooling and a bunch of lead balls and a mold. Overall its 4' long......artistic taste on the build but looks way solid.
Priceing is difficult........Best I can see on BP units is about a $100 bucks per inch of bore seems the going rate. Anyone have a better /different idea how to price something like this?
yes these are all modern guns that are registered as destructive devices
I’ve also enjoyed this thread very enlightening. Can you describe the RVO powder grain size I’m curious if you have a picture of it. I’m also very interested in the varied price ranges models you’ve mentioned in just an approximations. Thank you, Aaron
I’ve also enjoyed this thread very enlightening. Can you describe the RVO powder grain size I’m curious if you have a picture of it. I’m also very interested in the varied price ranges models you’ve mentioned in just an approximations. Thank you, Aaron
prices vary greatly. Unrestored vs restored makes a big difference. Also a big difference between could shoot and actively shooting. Add a few rounds and some accoutrements and the price goes up. Prices are going to vary from about 13k to 40k for the guns on this list in shooting condition. Below is a pic of some super slow powder
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Once went shopping at Landies. He had a couple of the squatty American guns but no ammo. He also had a Puteaux and 4 cans of ammo for it. I got the Puteaux. We have never fired it, never will, I am guessing. Has to be transported on a trailer. Once I quit drag racing, I sold my trailer as it was beginning to show rust holes in the frame. I can't justify getting another trailer. I did keep two cans of ammo.........for the next guy.......if someone does manage to pry it out of Donna's hands.

PJH

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Or…..you can spend 8 years and machine one from scratch and register it on a form one…..
(My pockets aren’t deep enough to buy one right out….:cautious:)

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Bob, are there any other shortcomings to the US M3 37mm other than lack of economical projectile availability? I would really like to pick up a gun this size in the next couple of years, and the M3 was my first choice since I have a military jeep to drag it around.

What sort of barrel life do shooters see from these guns?
This fun is far enough out there that I don't have any real feeling of expense involved. Are there middle class guys still getting into this or is this pretty much limited to the upper class these days, if one is starting from scratch?
8 years to machine one? Mine took 10. 😀. Although I did have considerable time periods where I got frustrated and didn’t touch it. My wife jokingly referred to it as my girlfriend

I went with a screw breech to simplify the reloading by not needing to size cases. The screw breech forced them in
This fun is far enough out there that I don't have any real feeling of expense involved. Are there middle class guys still getting into this or is this pretty much limited to the upper class these days, if one is starting from scratch?
No different then owning a boat, rzr, race car, etc if it is something you are passionate about you will find a way
Bob
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Bob, are there any other shortcomings to the US M3 37mm other than lack of economical projectile availability? I would really like to pick up a gun this size in the next couple of years, and the M3 was my first choice since I have a military jeep to drag it around.

What sort of barrel life do shooters see from these guns?
Not really. They are a sold gun. As long as your barrel is in decent shape it will last you forever
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