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It's up at the white house main page.

POS lame duck! Can't just leave, worst POTUS in history.

When does the REVOLUTION start?!
 

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From what I have read this EO is really more about making the news cycle than actually having any affect on the vast majority of gun owners and sellers. I do not have a problem with requiring people who buy and sell on a level that would make a FFL dealer proud being required to have an FFL. I see those types at every show I attend and as a FFL dealer I feel they should have to live with the same rules I do. Clarifying the regulation to what is a dealer and what is not will go a long way in correcting this.

That being said, I do not care for the way the change came about.
 

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In neutered york state (because of the unsafe act) we're already there. For the rest of the free country what this really does is to force all firearms transactions onto paper - all record-able now through the beloved 4473 federal forms and FFLs. That's what they're not addressing - if it goes through a NICS check it needs to be recorded - along with your name, race and everything else they need to locate that firearm when they decide to come and get it. Will it do anything to eliminate crime? No - of course not. It will - however - help them track the ones in the hands of the law abiding citizens.
 

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I'm going to take the word "level" to a different level. In my mind it clearly depends on how the EO's are written, and to what level they would incriminate sellers. I grandpa giving his 30-30 to a son or grandchild? I father handing his gun over to his son to use for the day at the range or maybe to go hunting? I've read all kinds of horror scenarios like that. Secondly, who will be able to enforce at that level?? Sure, a gun show is a mass gathering and easy to watch over, and even online transactions [or any activity really] is track-able with the right software. But in a farm house, a barn, a kitchen, or even at the hunting land, tracking and enforcing is just about a moot point.

It boils down to just more rules and regulations. No-one can own an illegal machine gun, but there are hundreds of bump fire stocks sitting in unlawful peoples houses and possibly cars and trucks, easily achieving 400 RPM . SBR's are totally regulated by NFA, and yet there are numerous wrist braces for pistols everywhere to be found, and very few people worry about getting seen or caught using it as a stock for the pistol, thus creating a totally illegal weapon because it is not papered by NFA regulations. So....my point was - just more reg's to make someone look good.....and we all know who it is that's trying to look good.
 

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Until it's read- and analyzed, everything is premature.

BUT the part about making a seller of a single arm "in the business" could be a real problem. That means if you want to sell online- even going to an FFL- you'd need to be licensed or can't sell? That means the only way to sell excess arms is to an FFL- or there will be a run on FFL applications which will be declined.
 

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You of course know the law of unintended consequences.

This will mean being an FFL will be more valuable. Fees will go up, the time to get a NICs check will increase. Gunbroker will likely go the way of eBay with few actual auctions. Also, the value of a weapon that is off the books will increase. My first guess is 80% receivers will quickly jump in price. If you are thinking of an 80% AR, get it now.

There will be other effects.

You guys do know that this pres. is the best firearm salesman in history.

Of course, if the hilda beast gets in, he will only be second best.

Karl
 

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Scary part is FFL's will be in more demand and command higher fees, but just like NICS examiners, there will no doubt be a dramatic shortage of individuals with FFL's, and new ones will probably be harder to get under the new guidelines yet to be disclosed. Pretty sad when my uncle has to call me or some other FFL so he can leave his old Marlin 22 bolt action rifle to one of the kids on the farm....
 

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If everyone is a dealer, firearms will be moving across state lines freely and states will want sales taxes. Who will do the record keeping and auditing?
 

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Who needs a Federal license to deal in firearms?

Under federal law, any person who engages in the business of dealing in firearms must be licensed.

What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”?


Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”

https://fnn.app.box.com/s/e5ibgdi1r50f7ofqg6u9tx3myoowd30b
 

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Who needs a Federal license to deal in firearms?

Under federal law, any person who engages in the business of dealing in firearms must be licensed.

What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”?


Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”

https://fnn.app.box.com/s/e5ibgdi1r50f7ofqg6u9tx3myoowd30b
Of course the problem has been one of definition. The ATF has used this law to charge people who sell only a handful of gun. The big question is: How much time devoted, how much attention and labor, how much profit and how many repetitive purchases and sales? I have known gun collectors who show up at gun shows with a dozen guns and buy or sell six or eight several times a year. technically they could be considered a dealer (or not) just depending on how the local ATF agent interprets the law. Now it seems if you sell just one you are a dealer. It use to be fairly easy to get a dealer's license I had one way back when they cost $10.00 a year. Now it seems you have to have a place of business not in your home although that may just be a local thing.
 

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Nothing new on the dealer licensing front. As Kirby said, all about the hype, no substance. Maybe something else will materialize tomorrow or next month, but so far..... zzzzzzzzzzzz
 

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Of course the problem has been one of definition. The ATF has used this law to charge people who sell only a handful of gun. The big question is: How much time devoted, how much attention and labor, how much profit and how many repetitive purchases and sales? I have known gun collectors who show up at gun shows with a dozen guns and buy or sell six or eight several times a year. technically they could be considered a dealer (or not) just depending on how the local ATF agent interprets the law. Now it seems if you sell just one you are a dealer. It use to be fairly easy to get a dealer's license I had one way back when they cost $10.00 a year. Now it seems you have to have a place of business not in your home although that may just be a local thing.
Read the examples in the link, very easy to understand.
 

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You of course know the law of unintended consequences.

This will mean being an FFL will be more valuable. Fees will go up, the time to get a NICs check will increase. Gunbroker will likely go the way of eBay with few actual auctions. Also, the value of a weapon that is off the books will increase. My first guess is 80% receivers will quickly jump in price. If you are thinking of an 80% AR, get it now.

There will be other effects.

You guys do know that this pres. is the best firearm salesman in history.

Of course, if the hilda beast gets in, he will only be second best.

Karl
Purchases on GB go to dealers then transferred to individual or at their FFL with 4473. I don't see any difference. I bet GB must do Millions of dollars in gun sale. This will not go away. Selling on GB and pointing to a FFl for transfer is what they were looking for. These assertions seems premature
 

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I listened to Obama crying on his telecast. Everyone assumes Nic checks will go on as usual. Is local states going to continue to run nic checks through data base or will the feds take over. That could slow down just as approvals. Another thing Oboma said was stopping Gun trusts. NOT MUCH FEED BACK ON THAT.
 

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First let me state that I have not read the text of the orders, so I am going largely on what has been posted online, news sources, forum posts, etc. The trust issue was going to happen before O left office, it's just been delayed a few times. But a significant part of the trust business has been to beat the CLEO signature when it was unobtainable. So if the signature is indeed eliminated, that greatly reduces the demand for trusts. Now generational control of NFA etc is a separate matter, but requiring background checks for that, while being a nuisance by requiring every trust member to undergo that, is not going to hinder that market much. So again, Lone Ranger's zzzzzz comment fits pretty well.

What I think has totally escaped the cognizant resonance of the President, AG and others who view this as a great victory, is another point in the category of unintended consequences. At least since the Clinton Administration, there has been a fairly successful effort by the bureaucrats and politicians to greatly reduce the number of licensed dealers. Untold thousands of home based, part time FFLs have been driven out, and the standard that one must be making a serious attempt to earn a living from one's FFL has been the standard requirement in recent years. Or, so the elimination questions I recall answering on my initial app would lead me to believe. So..... it seems that they may have inadvertently just undermined 20 years of hard work they undertook to reduce the volume of licensees and may now be forced to dramatically increase their workload. Hmm, maybe they didn't quite think this one through!

Now of course, they could make up regs or rulings that make it difficult or impossible to be a small dealer, thereby forcing a great amount of formerly private business to the largely preexisting dealer rolls. But that will only benefit said dealers, and greatly increase the load on the NICS system. I understand funding for 200 more FBI personnel has been called for. Heck, that might not be a bad thing even for the status quo, were nothing else changing. I have NOT heard of extra ATF personnel, but maybe I missed that. In any case, a huge load of extra licensees will undoubtedly create a lot of extra pressure on the IOIs.
 

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Lucky,

My dad was one of the small town dealers the ATF targeted during the clinton regime. After 30 plus years of being a FFL (as well as being a local judge) he decided it wasn't worth the hassle. He's 76 now and works almost 40 hrs/ week at our local Cabelas in the gun library just because he loves firearms and people who are like minded. He's a god fearing, church going man who doesn't drink, lie or gamble and the alphabet boys (one lady in particular) went out of their way to close his doors. I have a huge mistrust of that branch of our gooberment now.

I will have to read the actual document before I specifically comment on it. I am sure though that it won't effect the criminals one tiny bit.
 

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brassmagnet SEZ: ".... No-one can own an illegal machine gun, [or an illegal anything else] but there are hundreds of bump fire stocks sitting in unlawful peoples houses and possibly cars and trucks, easily achieving 400 RPM ...."

Bump-fire stocks currently on the market come with a copy of the letter of "approval" from the ATF. Not all bump-fire stocks have been approved, however, just ask what's-his-name from this board -- we had to send the spring to the ATF to continue to possess the device. Then he modified his design and got it approved. I've still got mine and it's legal.

"....SBR's are totally regulated by NFA, and yet there are numerous wrist braces for pistols everywhere to be found, and very few people worry about getting seen or caught using it as a stock for the pistol, thus creating a totally illegal weapon because it is not papered by NFA regulations...."

Same as with wrist braces; they are legal, determined and approved by the ATF as braces, not stocks.


The questions, however, raised by this Executive Order, are first (aside from it's legality and the increasing legislation effecting our everyday lives to no benefit to society) how it's going to affect the average Joe Citizen from buying, selling, giving or trading his own PRIVATE PROPERTY. Obama is blowing smoke, rearranging the way things are said to make it look like he's "doing something for the children," with (crocodile*) tears in his eyes. That's just such total BS -- he's looking for a legacy!

This same NBC Evening News Report from Lester Holt yesterday evening reporting on this EO, highlighted a woman "in a gun shop" stating she had "come in here and purchased a shotgun with no questions asked." Rather than trying to create more laws and hierarchy, why prosecute such obvious apparent violations as this woman and this gun shop? Laws, like door locks, don't prevent crime, they only make the more abiding amongst us more honest. This EO only distracts the population from more important matters such as the economy, racial bias in policing, mental healthcare, ISIS and the Taliban, etc.

*The phrase derives from an ancient belief that crocodiles shed tears while consuming their victims


Carry On!
Gary
><>
 

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Of course the problem has been one of definition. The ATF has used this law to charge people who sell only a handful of gun. The big question is: How much time devoted, how much attention and labor, how much profit and how many repetitive purchases and sales? I have known gun collectors who show up at gun shows with a dozen guns and buy or sell six or eight several times a year. technically they could be considered a dealer (or not) just depending on how the local ATF agent interprets the law. Now it seems if you sell just one you are a dealer. It use to be fairly easy to get a dealer's license I had one way back when they cost $10.00 a year. Now it seems you have to have a place of business not in your home although that may just be a local thing.
You can be a home based business, however the ATFE will require you to demonstrate that you are not in violation of local zoning laws/ordinances most of which will require some sort of zoning variance or conditional permitted use to conduct a business especially if people are going to visit your home/place of business. Obtaining a variance etc. can be a long and drawn out not to mention expensive ordeal likely the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition depending on the views of the zoning officer and/or the zoning commission/board of appeals.
 

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I'm still reading and processing these new changes, but from the 10,000ft view it appears the overall focus is on pulling private sales into the NICS system. That coupled with the new reporting requirements for "lost" or "stolen" firearms, works to tighten accountability of private transactions and ownership. Together, those smell like a precursory step towards registration.

E
 
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