[brassmagnet]

I pretty much figure an FFL is necessary for repro vintage guns like the Winchester Model 73', '76, and Trapdoors. You need one to order one from any source/importer.

My question is, according to the FFR, it says a firearm qualifies as antique if it "uses rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the US and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade"........

What constitutes ordinary channels of commercial trade? Does special order ammo meet the description/requirement of not manufactured in the US? Are they referring to just commercially available ammo, say, at Cabellas or Gander Mt.?

Opinions???

 

[Lone Ranger]

Brassman,

I believe "obsolete" would be a good word; If Norma or some other off the beaten path makes it and it is commercially available, likely won't cut it. If it's something you have to form yourself... maybe.

Age will always get you a green light - example would be some of the 95 Steyrs and 91 Mosins... if they were manufactured in or before 1898, they are antiques, regardless of readily available fixed ammo and no FFL needed.

Non-fixed ammo will swing it too - 1854 Sharps cavalry or 1863 Springfield made last week - ammo not fixed, so antique.

I actually don't know anyone who has been in the situation per se of a newer gun with impossible to buy ammo. If you are on the edge, probably a letter explaining the scenario to FTB to get a determination of whether it qualifies as an antique based on ammo.


Do you have a specific make/model/caliber in mind or just thinking out loud?

 

[brassmagnet]

More less just thinking out loud - had one of those deep thought moments.

 

[alamosaddles]

My question is, according to the FFR, it says a firearm qualifies as antique if it "uses rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the US and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade"........

What constitutes ordinary channels of commercial trade? Does special order ammo meet the description/requirement of not manufactured in the US? Are they referring to just commercially available ammo, say, at Cabellas or Gander Mt.?

Opinions???

Actually, unless I have an older version that's not all it says. It starts by declaring any pre-1898 firearm qualifies as antique, and then it goes on to expand on that to include replicas of such weapons WITH certain conditions.

What I'm finding referencing this is as follows. The regulation reads like this:

18 USC 921 (a)(16).

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or
before 1898;
or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica --
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured
in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial
trade.

Based on this I think it's clear they are inferring that a "replica" of a pre-1898 weapon would be an antique. Replica would further infer that it would use the same type of propellant system (ammo) as the original did in it's time.

Ordinary channels of commercial trade to me would mean that you can't go buy the stuff any any regular ammunition supplier, and perhaps that the ammo has to be special made just for you or others in your same situation. If it's ammo that is regularly stocked by someone, anyone, it's probably not going to fly with ATF.

 

[Lone Ranger]

The modern replica is ammo dependent. Replica of old gun that uses fixed ammo is a firearm... 45/70 Sharps Rifle... firearm if modern replica, antique if real deal made before 1898 even though same ammo. H&R (?) Buffalo Classic is prime example.

Title I: Age or ammo

Title II: Age and ammo

 

[alamosaddles]

The modern replica is ammo dependent. Replica of old gun that uses fixed ammo is a firearm... 45/70 Sharps Rifle... firearm if modern replica, antique if real deal made before 1898 even though same ammo. H&R (?) Buffalo Classic is prime example.

Title I: Age or ammo

Title II: Age and ammo

I agree with that, but, what if it's a replica of an antique which used fixed ammo, but the ammo is not available unless you go and make it yourself or get someone to make it for you.

I just don't know enough about old old guns to pick out an example of an antique that used fixed ammo, for which that ammo is not readily available.

 

[hagar]

I agree with that, but, what if it's a replica of an antique which used fixed ammo, but the ammo is not available unless you go and make it yourself or get someone to make it for you.

I just don't know enough about old old guns to pick out an example of an antique that used fixed ammo, for which that ammo is not readily available.

An example of antique firearms that are not restricted would be the old large caliber rimfire cartridges such as the Henry .44 rimfire.

 

[brassmagnet]

An example of antique firearms that are not restricted would be the old large caliber rimfire cartridges such as the Henry .44 rimfire.

This is where my curiosity came in. I have trapdoors in 45/70 that are antique due to the DOM, but the caliber is readily available in commercial stores. I guess people like Buffalo Arms and Ten-X, being manufacturers of obsolete ammo like 50/95, 45/60, 40/60 and 45/75 still qualify as normal commercial channels, even though it is specially made from reformed brass because no original brass is available in those calibers. All of these calibers were originally black powder, BUT, can be reloaded with smokeless powder if done right.

The main point of my curiosity was what constitutes ordinary channels of commercial trade. Apparently special order or special made ammo, available through a store or internet store, makes it qualify as such. Problem is, if you want to manufacture or reload ammo for sale, you have to be licensed, and thus you would be in business to sell. That makes your product available through ordinary channels of commercial trade then, no ? So what contitutes "not available through normal commercial channels" ? It has to be handmade and not actually for sale? It's not really that important - I was just having one of those inquisitive moments where I wanted clarification for my own personal gratification. Thaks for the responses everyone

alamosaddles, we have the same book - I just didn't put that first part in because it didn't pertain to what I was asking. I just isolated the paragraphs I was referring to. Thanks for looking it over though - you seem to study the FFR pretty well - I appreciate your input anytime..

 

[alamosaddles]

alamosaddles, we have the same book - I just didn't put that first part in because it didn't pertain to what I was asking. I just isolated the paragraphs I was referring to. Thanks for looking it over though - you seem to study the FFR pretty well - I appreciate your input anytime..

Brass...I hope I didn't come across as negative or poking at the quote or post. If so it was never my intention, I thought perhaps you had pulled it off the internet and they had perhaps posted an incomplete regulation which you were looking at, that's all.

Your question however is very valid and a good one. At what point does regular commercially available kick in? I could see ATF streching to say that any licensed ammo manufacturer who makes and sells a round then qualifies it as such.

 

[brassmagnet]

Not at all alamosaddles - and I was serious about rendering your opinion anytime. You have a good grasp of the regs and go over them quite studiously. I like that...

 

[moosiah]

old stuff

I went through this w the cali doj idiots when I bought a 1878 Vetrelli... made in 1881, uses 10.45 x38 ammo, not available since about 1930 . doj made me pay all the fees, added over $55 to price now I hear that the fire arms div wieners have gotten in trouble for "making up laws".. shoulda fired their asses if it's made before 1898 it's an antique.

 

[Lone Ranger]

magnet, you have my curiousity going now. If my few remaining brain cells can retain the thought, I will see if I can't come up with some guidance next week maybe. Always kind of wondered about the phrase myself; just never had anyone ask and give me the motivation I guess and the guns I like all run available calibers. If I vapor lock, it's all your fault.

 

[alamosaddles]

Not at all alamosaddles - and I was serious about rendering your opinion anytime. You have a good grasp of the regs and go over them quite studiously. I like that...

Well then, thank you good sir. I have ridiculous amounts of dead time when I'm pulling shifts overnight, so I spend most of the time immersed in the "book" in between posts and piss breaks..lol

 

[brassmagnet]

magnet, you have my curiousity going now. If my few remaining brain cells can retain the thought, I will see if I can't come up with some guidance next week maybe. Always kind of wondered about the phrase myself; just never had anyone ask and give me the motivation I guess and the guns I like all run available calibers. If I vapor lock, it's all your fault.

Don't overload the gearbox Lone Ranger Besides, in a week or so I'll probably forget all about the problem and move on to something simpler

 

[bullseye]

I can't seem to get 50 cal ammo any more it is clear that it is not available through normal channels I am ready to by an antique replica in 50 bmg any offers

 

[Rory]

hey bullseye, are you able to buy reloading components?

 

[brassmagnet]

I can't seem to get 50 cal ammo any more it is clear that it is not available through normal channels I am ready to by an antique replica in 50 bmg any offers

I thought I read that AlliedArmament had huge supplies of reloaded ammo available now....