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610 Posts
I have 3 semi 1919's and would like to convert one to full auto "As if I could really afford to shoot it!". What is the process as far as ATF paperwork is involved? Thanks, I am sure you guys know!
Full Auto ATF Proess
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3,034 Posts
Bzzzt! Wrong answer, if he goes 007FFL/SOT he can machine his own bolt and play. Question is does he like working on/building firearms as a full or part-time job, have a decent machine shop and zoned for that, and willing to "pay to play". Many have the means and want to do it, but zoning laws can kill the deal.
Joined
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1,389 Posts
The 07/02 is the only way if he wants to make a "new" one, transferables were all made prior to May 19, 1986. The thing besides zoning is the BATF takes a dim view of someone getting the license's if they don't actually plan to do business but only add to their own collection.
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1,115 Posts
as it currently stands, there have been no new machine guns able to be made by regular everyday people since may of 1986 - google and read the mcclure volkmer firearm owners protection act
of course you can become licensed to manufacture full auto firearms for military and law enforcement but there are ALOT of headaches involved with that, but certainly doable. The ATF has been CLEAR that it requires you to actually be in the business of manufacturing firearms, and you may not do this as a hobby only, you actually have to be in the business. It will cost you money for the manufacturers license, and an extra $1000.00 for the SOT tax that allows you to make MGs as post may dealer samples. The tax will need to be paid yearly. You will need to find someplace that will rent you a building and you have to let them know you will be making machine guns because the atf will DEFINATELY tell them upon the interview process. You will need to buy insurance for your business, and all kinds of fun stuff before you ever become licensed or are able to make a single firearm. The building must be zoned, and many places wont let you do this out of your house. If you do live in a place that lets you do it out of your house, then you open your house to the government to come in anytime they wish to have a look around.
also mentioned above, you ARE able to do this if you buy a firearm registered to the NFA before may of 1986 as a transferable gun. This includes sideplates also as mentioned above.
to buy a transferable firearm, first you have to live in a state that allows them
after that you will have to purchase one, and send the money to the owner of the NFA item which will start the paperwork process. You will need to have it signed by your chief law enforcement officer stating that he knows of no reason you shouldnt have it. After the law enforcement endorsement, then you send the form 4 in with 2 sets of fingerprints, a form stating you are a us citizen, clear recent passport photos, and a check for $200.00. You will go through an extensive background check by the FBI. If you pass that, the forms will be returned to the inspector and you will then need to pass the ATFs inspection criteria. Once all that happens, a form 4 with a $200.00 hand canceled tax stamp will be mailed to the person who owns the NFA item. Once he gets the approved form 4 with your passport photo and hand canceled stamp on it, he will hand you the firearm or NFA item.
If you live in a different state, you will need to find a NFA dealer locally that will receive the NFA item for you. This usually requires an extra $200.00 tax plus a transfer fee because it has to transfer from the original owner in a different state to the NFA dealer in your state, and then from the NFA dealer in your state to you which also adds time to the whole thing. it can take a long time some times, and the wait will kill you. I recently went through a transfer and it took 4 months
so, in a nutshell, you have 3 options the way i see it
1. become a licensed manufacturer and pay the SOT tax and jump through all the MANY hoops to be able to legally manufacture new MGs for law enforcement and govt acencies only
2. buy a transferable machine gun or NFA item like a sideplate registered to the NFA registry as a transferable gun before may of 1986 and pay the fees associated with that, and jump through all them hoops
3. if the scotus rules in our favor on heller vs DC under strict scrutiny, you can hire a lawyer and try to get the 1986 FOPA thrown out on the grounds of its unconstutionality and pay and deal with all this headache(good luck on this option)
either one of these three options will be expensive, and full of bureacratic red tape and headaches, but your only hope of doing this
research the mcclure volkmer firearm owners protection act of 1986, and if youre interested in maybe becoming a licensed manufacturer, then look up the machine gun dealers bible (which will give you information to help you towards getting your manufacturers license with SOT tax paid for govt and LE samples)
clear as mud?
hope some of it helps and isnt too repititious
Mike
of course you can become licensed to manufacture full auto firearms for military and law enforcement but there are ALOT of headaches involved with that, but certainly doable. The ATF has been CLEAR that it requires you to actually be in the business of manufacturing firearms, and you may not do this as a hobby only, you actually have to be in the business. It will cost you money for the manufacturers license, and an extra $1000.00 for the SOT tax that allows you to make MGs as post may dealer samples. The tax will need to be paid yearly. You will need to find someplace that will rent you a building and you have to let them know you will be making machine guns because the atf will DEFINATELY tell them upon the interview process. You will need to buy insurance for your business, and all kinds of fun stuff before you ever become licensed or are able to make a single firearm. The building must be zoned, and many places wont let you do this out of your house. If you do live in a place that lets you do it out of your house, then you open your house to the government to come in anytime they wish to have a look around.
also mentioned above, you ARE able to do this if you buy a firearm registered to the NFA before may of 1986 as a transferable gun. This includes sideplates also as mentioned above.
to buy a transferable firearm, first you have to live in a state that allows them
after that you will have to purchase one, and send the money to the owner of the NFA item which will start the paperwork process. You will need to have it signed by your chief law enforcement officer stating that he knows of no reason you shouldnt have it. After the law enforcement endorsement, then you send the form 4 in with 2 sets of fingerprints, a form stating you are a us citizen, clear recent passport photos, and a check for $200.00. You will go through an extensive background check by the FBI. If you pass that, the forms will be returned to the inspector and you will then need to pass the ATFs inspection criteria. Once all that happens, a form 4 with a $200.00 hand canceled tax stamp will be mailed to the person who owns the NFA item. Once he gets the approved form 4 with your passport photo and hand canceled stamp on it, he will hand you the firearm or NFA item.
If you live in a different state, you will need to find a NFA dealer locally that will receive the NFA item for you. This usually requires an extra $200.00 tax plus a transfer fee because it has to transfer from the original owner in a different state to the NFA dealer in your state, and then from the NFA dealer in your state to you which also adds time to the whole thing. it can take a long time some times, and the wait will kill you. I recently went through a transfer and it took 4 months
so, in a nutshell, you have 3 options the way i see it
1. become a licensed manufacturer and pay the SOT tax and jump through all the MANY hoops to be able to legally manufacture new MGs for law enforcement and govt acencies only
2. buy a transferable machine gun or NFA item like a sideplate registered to the NFA registry as a transferable gun before may of 1986 and pay the fees associated with that, and jump through all them hoops
3. if the scotus rules in our favor on heller vs DC under strict scrutiny, you can hire a lawyer and try to get the 1986 FOPA thrown out on the grounds of its unconstutionality and pay and deal with all this headache(good luck on this option)
either one of these three options will be expensive, and full of bureacratic red tape and headaches, but your only hope of doing this
research the mcclure volkmer firearm owners protection act of 1986, and if youre interested in maybe becoming a licensed manufacturer, then look up the machine gun dealers bible (which will give you information to help you towards getting your manufacturers license with SOT tax paid for govt and LE samples)
clear as mud?
hope some of it helps and isnt too repititious
Mike
Joined
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610 Posts
Broken leg
I will stay with a crankfire! It works fine. At this moment I would rather have a broken leg than a fullAuto Too much hassel and no real advantages. Hillery or the Obama dude would probably confiscate it anyway.
I will stay with a crankfire! It works fine. At this moment I would rather have a broken leg than a fullAuto Too much hassel and no real advantages. Hillery or the Obama dude would probably confiscate it anyway.
Joined
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1,122 Posts
I frequently tell people that if your goal is one gun, get a home equity loan or something and make payments. WAY less headache and aggravation and will cost you the same or maybe less per month than going the 07/02 route. Plus you will actually own it for life whereas the postie goes bye-bye if you get sick of paying the tab.
07 FFL: $50
02 SOT (reduced rate): $500
ITAR: $1750
Pushing $200/month to basically rent a post-86 gun, and that's assuming you have zero other expenses - get all the parts and tooling for free, don't have to rent a premises, no insurance, local licensing taxes etc. Plus, when it comes time for renewal if you built one gun for yourself and transferred none there's no promise of keeping your license.
Of course, you can sell some guns to offset that, but then that takes you out of that "one gun goal" category.
P.S. - Steve A... given recent events w/ Akins and AW Sim, looks like devices are more on the radar than MGs.... better get some PVC.
07 FFL: $50
02 SOT (reduced rate): $500
ITAR: $1750
Pushing $200/month to basically rent a post-86 gun, and that's assuming you have zero other expenses - get all the parts and tooling for free, don't have to rent a premises, no insurance, local licensing taxes etc. Plus, when it comes time for renewal if you built one gun for yourself and transferred none there's no promise of keeping your license.
Of course, you can sell some guns to offset that, but then that takes you out of that "one gun goal" category.
P.S. - Steve A... given recent events w/ Akins and AW Sim, looks like devices are more on the radar than MGs.... better get some PVC.
Full Auto
Some things are worth spending money on. Go to The Big Sandy shoot then tell me that a crank is just as good. Another way to get hopelessly hooked is to go to a subgun match. There is a club that has a FA division somewhere near you. I'm telling you food is highly over rated.
Some things are worth spending money on. Go to The Big Sandy shoot then tell me that a crank is just as good. Another way to get hopelessly hooked is to go to a subgun match. There is a club that has a FA division somewhere near you. I'm telling you food is highly over rated.
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785 Posts
I have to really agree with Beltfire. Once you try one (especially a BELTFED) weapon, you will always want one. My son bought a 1919, we went to the pre-cursor of the Big Sandy, and I had to have one. Thats why today I still own a beltfed and have never looked back.
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610 Posts
Lone Ranger
Are the handcranks on the chopping block now! I new it would happen someday, just did't expect it too soon! I don't have one yet and this really gives me something to think about. We are not wackos and weirdos but the ATF really has no way of identifying the good frome the bad, so all they can do is "Burn the barn to kill the last rat"
Are the handcranks on the chopping block now! I new it would happen someday, just did't expect it too soon! I don't have one yet and this really gives me something to think about. We are not wackos and weirdos but the ATF really has no way of identifying the good frome the bad, so all they can do is "Burn the barn to kill the last rat"
Joined
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1,122 Posts
I think you got the humor, but in case you didn't it was very much a joke. Far as I know, there is not even a breath of a rumor about crankfires being on the radar. Just in case, buy for cash and buy PVC.
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489 Posts
Roflmao
I recently acquired a papered MAC-10& suppressor and took me about a week to tell my better half. I had all the details worked out as to why it is so expensive" But honey sweetie poopsie pie, it WILL GO UP IN VALUE !!!!" and then finally she asked me WHY ???
Told her it was my money and I wanted the DA*# Thing.
The she wanted to look at one so I pulled up a picture--- She started laughing and said who would pay that much money for a UGLY thing like that.
Take out a loan (Credit cards have some good interest rates 2.99-6.99 )or maybe a second loan (May be tax deductable )
Sleeping on the couch isn't so bad and as for food---- OVERRATED
But I am selling PLASMA for ammo
I recently acquired a papered MAC-10& suppressor and took me about a week to tell my better half. I had all the details worked out as to why it is so expensive" But honey sweetie poopsie pie, it WILL GO UP IN VALUE !!!!" and then finally she asked me WHY ???
Told her it was my money and I wanted the DA*# Thing.
The she wanted to look at one so I pulled up a picture--- She started laughing and said who would pay that much money for a UGLY thing like that.
Take out a loan (Credit cards have some good interest rates 2.99-6.99 )or maybe a second loan (May be tax deductable
)Sleeping on the couch isn't so bad and as for food---- OVERRATED
But I am selling PLASMA for ammo
Good post and great info. If you dont wish to do the above, assign your shop a different address. That is your licensed place of business, not your home.
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