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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
You may want to double check this, but I have been told this change n the law is suspended since the federal judge in Fresno ruled the AR ban to be unconstitutional. It is on appeal and whoever loses will appeal that I’m sure. Cali point, the hi capacity mag ban being struck down by the same judge around 3 years ago (?). It is still on appeal.
Well, if THAT were the case they wouldn't have opened the registration period in the first place. They would have simply posted it on the website and said the registration is stayed pending the appeal. Since they have not, I have to presume it is not (as explained in my other post)
 

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EXACTLY. The appeals will last much longer, but we may not have a chance to register if we assume the ban is stayed and it is not. The worst that could happen if I register and they later ditch the registration as the law is overturned ( a VERY unlikely scenario) is that I have another weapon registered with the state (I already have many many others that have been registered with CA for over 20 years now).
But if I don't then I risk losing the gun or having to conver to the A6 (which I don't like as much as the a4)
Converting it to an A6 would make it an assault rifle, not duck the registration requirement, going back to the second ban based on features. A detachable magazine (the belt) and a flash hider make it an AR based on features.
 

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Having sat back down and re-read the definitions, all belt feds will have to be registered. Arguments of shrouds and water jackets, and the purpose of either are a dead issue. Anything not classified as a rifle, pistol, or shotgun is now classified as an "other firearm" and any "other firearm" that feeds through a magazine not in the pistol grip - any weapon that feeds through the top, bottom, or side of the receiver - is now an Assault Rifle. That includes every MG I can think of. They will have to be registered.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Having sat back down and re-read the definitions, all belt feds will have to be registered. Arguments of shrouds and water jackets, and the purpose of either are a dead issue. Anything not classified as a rifle, pistol, or shotgun is now classified as an "other firearm" and any "other firearm" that feeds through a magazine not in the pistol grip - any weapon that feeds through the top, bottom, or side of the receiver - is now an Assault Rifle. That includes every MG I can think of. They will have to be registered.
Wel, it depends on definitions. As pointed out to me, the MG 34 and 42's use the shroud to hold the booster (of course so does the 1919) and perhaps one could argue that it is not a shroud to shield the shooter's hands, but to hold the booster. In CA we've had to put grip wraps on the pistol grips to avoid 34 and 42's from being AW's anyway. Further, with the 34 and 42, along with the RP46 varient of the DPM and DP28 they are far closer to a "rifle" design in that they have buttstocks and CAN be shouldered and fired (albeit not terribly long or accurately) they CAN be fired that way unlike the 1919. I'm more confident that a DA (and jury) would have a hard time maintaining a 34 or 42 is an AOW since it has a shoulder stock (which is part of the definition of "rifle" for the ATF. (The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder ).
 

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You guys are letting it get past you…30515 9 (j).
30515: assault rifle means any of the following…
9. A semi auto firearm that is not a rifle, pistol or shotgun,…..and has any of the following…
(j) the capacity to accept a magazine at some location outside the pistol grip.

That renders the shroud v. jacket issue immaterial, as well as coming up with some new recoil recoil system.

As far as testing your luck in court with the theory that a butt makes it a rifle, might I remind you this is California. Most state judges are card carrying democrats and members of the ACLU. And your jury will be made up the usual California jury, mostly, if not entirely, made up liberal sheep with a stunning lack of critical thinking skills. But I will be rooting for you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
You guys are letting it get past you…30515 9 (j).
30515: assault rifle means any of the following…
9. A semi auto firearm that is not a rifle, pistol or shotgun,…..and has any of the following…
(j) the capacity to accept a magazine at some location outside the pistol grip.

That renders the shroud v. jacket issue immaterial, as well as coming up with some new recoil recoil system.

As far as testing your luck in court with the theory that a butt makes it a rifle, might I remind you this is California. Most state judges are card carrying democrats and members of the ACLU. And your jury will be made up the usual California jury, mostly, if not entirely, made up liberal sheep with a stunning lack of critical thinking skills. But I will be rooting for you!
Bob - CA defines a "rifle" as (paraphrasing) a weapon designed or redesigned to FIRE FROM THE SHOULDER. A 1919 is NOT designed to be fired from the shoulder (no stock of course) nor is it a "pistol" and being rifled is not a shotgun. Therefore, in the A4 configuation, it IS an AOW. (as defined)

With that.. we then look to see what such a gun CANNOT have. (i.e. what will make it an AW) and the law says any ONE of the following:

(9) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that does not have a fixed magazine, but that has any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(G) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(H) A second handgrip.
(I) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer's hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.

FULL STOP.

I understand your point about 9J also being a problem, but that only comes into play IF the gun is not a rifle. Well, the 34, 42 and others DO have STOCKS, thus making them RIFLES. Even on a tripod, what does the shooter do with an MG34 or 42? He puts it against his SHOULDER, right? Thus a SHOULDER fired weapon. So this conversation is really only about 1919a4's and maybe the few Maxim's etc. that shoot that way with no stocks.
 

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Bob - CA defines a "rifle" as (paraphrasing) a weapon designed or redesigned to FIRE FROM THE SHOULDER. A 1919 is NOT designed to be fired from the shoulder (no stock of course) nor is it a "pistol" and being rifled is not a shotgun. Therefore, in the A4 configuation, it IS an AOW. (as defined)

With that.. we then look to see what such a gun CANNOT have. (i.e. what will make it an AW) and the law says any ONE of the following:

(9) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that does not have a fixed magazine, but that has any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(G) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(H) A second handgrip.
(I) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer's hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.

FULL STOP.

I understand your point about 9J also being a problem, but that only comes into play IF the gun is not a rifle. Well, the 34, 42 and others DO have STOCKS, thus making them RIFLES. Even on a tripod, what does the shooter do with an MG34 or 42? He puts it against his SHOULDER, right? Thus a SHOULDER fired weapon. So this conversation is really only about 1919a4's and maybe the few Maxim's etc. that shoot that way with no stocks.
So, just to clarify I have a semi MAXIM, 1919A4, & SGM that I will be registering but should not register my DP28 even though it does have an RP46 belt fed conversion kit because it has a stock.
 

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Dp28 is a rifle. The 1919a4 with a stock becomes a rifle too. If you remove the booster or remove any parts to make the gun a manually operated gun then you are legal.
 

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You left out two key words in you your California rifle definition “…designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” So unless the 34 and 42 were designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder the mere presence of a buttstock doesn’t mean squat. Yes, they have them. What was the design intent of having one? So it could be fired from the shoulder, or to proved greater stability and accuracy when firing FA?
So the “designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder” part of the definition pretty much, in my mind at least, cancels out the “it has a butt and all rifles have a butt, therefore it is a rifle” train of thought. In my opinion, the same arguement would apply to the 1919a6. I get what you say that the law doesn’t say “shoulder fired” means it must be fired from the shoulder standing up, but again, what was the intent of putting a butt on it, to make it a rifle, or for some other reason like to manage recoil and provide a slight improvement in aim n FA? Look at the true rifles of WWII, the Garand, the Enfield, the 98K , the Arisaka, and the Nagant. Any them have a bipod? Just the Arisaka, briefly. Any of them crew served? No. Any of them have tripods? No. Any of them belt fed? No. You can hang a bayonet any of those other rifles, but can you hang a bayonet on a 34/42? No. Any of them as long or as heavy as a 34/42? No and no. Objectively, you have ask to yourself, even though it has a butt, was is designed, manufactured, and intended to be fired from the shoulder? “Capable of being fired from the shoulder” and “designed, manufactured, and intended to be fired from the shoulder” are two different things.
From what I read in the law, I will have to register my 34, my 42, my Maxim, my Vickers, my 1919’s, my Bren, my PPSH, and my DP28. I’m not happy, but don’t want to take the risk of not registering them. and having to keep them locked up out of sight and never being able to take them out. I hit my 10 year retirement countdown this month and in 10 years and one day will be loading up a shipping container. I don’t think the State will move to confiscate weapons before the Fed’s do, and even if they decide to, I’m sure I’m on more than one “special attention” list already. What’s ne more?
 

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Dp28 is a rifle. The 1919a4 with a stock becomes a rifle too. If you remove the booster or remove any parts to make the gun a manually operated gun then you are legal.
I understand where you are going with that, but I get hung of on the Cali definition of a rifle. That definition says nothing about the presence of a butt stock making a weapon a “rifle.” As has been said before, the definition is, loosely worded, a firearm designed/redesigned, manufactured / remanufactured, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. The “intended” part is the hang up for me. The 1919a4 was not designed or intended to be fired from the shoulder. Yes, you can adapt it to an a6 but is that a redesign and/ or remanufacture, or just a modification? Would a 1919a4 with a stock hung on have to marked as an a6 to be “designed / remanufactured and intended” to differentiate it from an a4 or a5 that didn’t come with a butt? I’m in the boat with everyone else here. To say it another way, you seem to imply the presence of a butt stock makes it a rifle, while the Cali definition does not mention the presence of a butt stock as defining a weapon as a rifle. It does specifically note designed, manufactured, and intended to be fired from the shoulder.
I know will have to register my Vickers and Maxim, and 1919a4’s, but as far as my 34, 42, dp28, Bren, I’m unsure. You have me thinking maybe I could hang a butt on my a4’s and call them rifles, but then there is the question of will they need to be re-marked as an a6 to ensure it was “designed, manufactured and intended to be fired from the shoulder” and not just adapted to fire fron the shoulder? Or would that be a re-design? After all, the the law says “intended to be fired from the shoulder” and does not say it has to be fired from the shoulder while standing up. I want to comply with the law, but not over-comply if I don’t have to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
You left out two key words in you your California rifle definition “…designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” So unless the 34 and 42 were designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder the mere presence of a buttstock doesn’t mean squat. Yes, they have them. What was the design intent of having one? So it could be fired from the shoulder, or to proved greater stability and accuracy when firing FA?
So the “designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder” part of the definition pretty much, in my mind at least, cancels out the “it has a butt and all rifles have a butt, therefore it is a rifle” train of thought. In my opinion, the same arguement would apply to the 1919a6. I get what you say that the law doesn’t say “shoulder fired” means it must be fired from the shoulder standing up, but again, what was the intent of putting a butt on it, to make it a rifle, or for some other reason like to manage recoil and provide a slight improvement in aim n FA? Look at the true rifles of WWII, the Garand, the Enfield, the 98K , the Arisaka, and the Nagant. Any them have a bipod? Just the Arisaka, briefly. Any of them crew served? No. Any of them have tripods? No. Any of them belt fed? No. You can hang a bayonet any of those other rifles, but can you hang a bayonet on a 34/42? No. Any of them as long or as heavy as a 34/42? No and no. Objectively, you have ask to yourself, even though it has a butt, was is designed, manufactured, and intended to be fired from the shoulder? “Capable of being fired from the shoulder” and “designed, manufactured, and intended to be fired from the shoulder” are two different things.
From what I read in the law, I will have to register my 34, my 42, my Maxim, my Vickers, my 1919’s, my Bren, my PPSH, and my DP28. I’m not happy, but don’t want to take the risk of not registering them. and having to keep them locked up out of sight and never being able to take them out. I hit my 10 year retirement countdown this month and in 10 years and one day will be loading up a shipping container. I don’t think the State will move to confiscate weapons before the Fed’s do, and even if they decide to, I’m sure I’m on more than one “special attention” list already. What’s ne more?
How does one shoot an MG34 or 42?
1. Place weapon on tripod (or your buddy's back in the case of the Germans sometimes)
2. Put STOCK of weapon into your SHOULDER and fire.

Seems pretty obvious that the weapon was designed to be fired from the shoulder right?
What part of thar makes you think that is wasn't designed to be fired from the shoulder? You are IMAGINING the part about having to hold up the rifle by hand. NOTHING in the law mentions holding the rifle up by hand in order to shoot it "from the shoulder".

Another example. U.S. B.A.R. A "rifle" by any reasonable interpretation. But wait, by YOUR interpretation, it has a bipod, so.... perhaps the rifle wasn't designed to be fired from the shoulder because it is heavy to hold up. Or.... maybe you saw old pictures from WWI indicating the use of a sling to shoot it from the hip in advancing walking fire so it is not a rifle? Don't make this more than it needs to be.

HOWEVER if you are dead set on registering your 34 and 42 - let us know what happens as I think the DOJ might actually reject your filing because the 34 and 42 etc. are rifles.
 

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How does one shoot an MG34 or 42?
1. Place weapon on tripod (or your buddy's back in the case of the Germans sometimes)
2. Put STOCK of weapon into your SHOULDER and fire.

Seems pretty obvious that the weapon was designed to be fired from the shoulder right?
What part of thar makes you think that is wasn't designed to be fired from the shoulder? You are IMAGINING the part about having to hold up the rifle by hand. NOTHING in the law mentions holding the rifle up by hand in order to shoot it "from the shoulder".

Another example. U.S. B.A.R. A "rifle" by any reasonable interpretation. But wait, by YOUR interpretation, it has a bipod, so.... perhaps the rifle wasn't designed to be fired from the shoulder because it is heavy to hold up. Or.... maybe you saw old pictures from WWI indicating the use of a sling to shoot it from the hip in advancing walking fire so it is not a rifle? Don't make this more than it needs to be.

HOWEVER if you are dead set on registering your 34 and 42 - let us know what happens as I think the DOJ might actually reject your filing because the 34 and 42 etc. are rifles.
Honestly, I’m coming around more and more to your line of thinking. The law says “…fired from shoulder.” It doesn’t say fired solely from the shoulder, fired from the shoulder standing up, fired from the shoulder unsupported, etc. You are absolutely right. I’m convinced.
 

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In my humble opinion ... and as a lay person and not a lawyer ...

I always thought weapons like MG34, MG42, BREN, RPD, MG08/15, MAG58, and M-60's, were considered assault rifles and did not fall under the AOW classification. I am not sure they can be registered in CA as they were covered by the previous AW ban (bullet button). I am not qualified to speak as whether they can be legally owned now if certain features are removed due to the complexity and vagueness of CA DOJ regulations and my lack of legal expertise.

Historically, the CA DOJ did not consider the M1919A4 an assault weapon (I have the letter). Once you put a stock on it, it may no longer be long gun and may be considered a rifle but I am not sure that wouldn't put it in the previous category as an assault rifle which is why in CA we did not typically put stocks on them. Again, as a knowledgeable FFL or a lawyer.

A BAR or M14 can both have bipods attached, they are both considered rifles and not assault weapons if they do not have the evil features (e.g. flash hiders) on them.
 

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In my humble opinion ... and as a lay person and not a lawyer ...

I always thought weapons like MG34, MG42, BREN, RPD, MG08/15, MAG58, and M-60's, were considered assault rifles and did not fall under the AOW classification. I am not sure they can be registered in CA as they were covered by the previous AW ban (bullet button). I am not qualified to speak as whether they can be legally owned now if certain features are removed due to the complexity and vagueness of CA DOJ regulations and my lack of legal expertise.

Historically, the CA DOJ did not consider the M1919A4 an assault weapon (I have the letter). Once you put a stock on it, it may no longer be long gun and may be considered a rifle but I am not sure that wouldn't put it in the previous category as an assault rifle which is why in CA we did not typically put stocks on them. Again, as a knowledgeable FFL or a lawyer.

A BAR or M14 can both have bipods attached, they are both considered rifles and not assault weapons if they do not have the evil features (e.g. flash hiders) on them.
The pistol grip does not go below the receiver so it is not considered a pistol grip by California. So it is still a featureless rifle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Honestly, I’m coming around more and more to your line of thinking. The law says “…fired from shoulder.” It doesn’t say fired solely from the shoulder, fired from the shoulder standing up, fired from the shoulder unsupported, etc. You are absolutely right. I’m convinced.
WHOLLY COW! Someone take down the time and date! (lol)
 

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Oh come on…what’s all that about; you wore me down and I finally agree with you. That’s happened once or twice before. Well, maybe once. It does provide hope for my MG3 build next year, though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Oh come on…what’s all that about; you wore me down and I finally agree with. That’s happened once or twice before. Well, maybe once. It does provide hope for my MG3 build next year, though.
Just teasing Bob. Glad to help out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Thanks for talking me down off the ledge. I ordered two a6 Izzy clamp-on butts from Apex yesterday. I imagine they will be selling a lot of them in the next couple of months.
Yeah, maybe. I don't know how many 1919's are in CA, but... I'll bet more than a few. Sounds like it might be a wise business move.
 
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