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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hypothetical question. Really hypothetical, not "asking for a "friend"" or any of that crap. An old guy hands you a ___, with a full receiver and happy switch, and say "what do you think it's worth? Interested?"

Demil meant "bolt removed" back in the day, but definitions change with the times. No paperwork=bad mojo. My crap is all on the up-and-up, and I work hard to keep it that way, but one does hear stories around the campfire...
 

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Local ATF received a few H&R Handy guns from us over the years. Seen plenty of M2 carbines on the loose too. Smile, say thanks, and give them the address to surrender the object. Never worth it. I know it's hard to resist but one should attempt to steer clear of that type of item. Once you get away with it for a while, you begin to think it's OK. It's just like speeding, legal until you get caught. J
 

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Hypothetical question. Really hypothetical, not "asking for a "friend"" or any of that crap. An old guy hands you a ___, with a full receiver and happy switch, and say "what do you think it's worth? Interested?"

Demil meant "bolt removed" back in the day, but definitions change with the times. No paperwork=bad mojo. My crap is all on the up-and-up, and I work hard to keep it that way, but one does hear stories around the campfire...
Walk away. Let your involvement not exceed saying "Thank you but no".
 

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That could be another Ruby Ridge in the making. I agree with the "Thanks, but no."
 

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What's it worth to me? Up to 10 years in a prison cell and / or up to a $250,000 fine. And one really, really pissed off wife. Thanks but no thanks.
 

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Run Forest run! it's worth about ten years in club fed but that comes with free HBO, a nice gym, 3 squares a day and the sex you don't want :eek:
 

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A fellow 27 years ago Maine had an FFL. He had an amphibious duck for sale, while looking it over started talking guns (I was still active duty). Told how they tried to set him up, guy just wanted to know if he would want to buy an MP40, then what it was worth when he said no, kept trying to push it into his hands for fingerprints. He told the fellow repeatedly to leave. Did I mention he was a Deputy? He took him down, cuffed him, called the local branch office to get their boy. He never heard of it again.

In short don't touch it if you dont know them well, even then...make a deal where they make the bad part get chopped and you get the parts.
 

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Unless you are going to torch demil it in front of him, all you can do is walk away.
 

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For what it's worth - one more turn and walk away - you will sleep a lot better.

No hypothetically about it!;)
 

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If you are around firearms long enough this will happen to you. To quote Sheriff Buford T. Justice (Jackie Gleason) "you can think about it but dooooon do it"
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
So everyone would walk away? Man, not a single "Weld the bolt to the receiver and hang it on the wall"? Nobody would decorate with a 20mm Polsten or a Vickers Balloon gun, or any of the other sad tales I've heard? (Wasn't there a 81Z on Gunbroker the other day?)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
i wouldn't discuss it on the internet. that's just me .
Heh, it's just discussion. My stuff is all on the up-and-up, and I fully intend to keep it that way. But, sometimes, you see stuff, or hear stories, and it makes you wonder "What would I REALLY do?"

Reminds me of a story told by a guy with "Shooting Property". Says folks would show up on occasion with Sten Guns or other home-made what-not. He consulted his legal counsel, who advised him it was not his duty to check their paperwork, and unless they indicated otherwise, he was safe to assume everything was legal. He said the worst part was most of the ... shall we say "Questionable" guns were brought by off duty law enforcement types.
 

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I recently received three, unregistered DEWATed HMGs from a PD that got from them a museum that did not want them any more. They were transferred to me on F5s with an addendum on each form that they were to be destroyed. They were transferred to me on F5s from the PD on the advice and assistance of ATF/NFA. I asked a specialist if an unregistered MG could be turned over to a PD and then the PD could transfer it to a CII on F5 for legal destruction. The specialist agreed that this would be OK. So, there is a legal avenue for having unregistered MGs destroyed.
Someone possessing an unregistered MG can take it to a welding shop and have the receiver torch destroyed to current import specs. ATF is very happy if this is done as destruction is their ideal solution. ATF has no interest or motivation to chase down unregistered MGs for several reasons. The primary reason is that it is now a part of the court record that ATF's registry is about 50% accurate along with many examples of erroneous and inaccurate registrations. ATF can no longer claim that the registry is 100% accurate which was cornerstone of their prosecutorial fortress.
ATF has lost a number of very heavily prosecuted cases in recent years where specific and actual NFA violations occurred but they could not win a prosecution. Usually they have to step for lying to an agent, mail fraud, filing false documents, etc, etc.They recently managed to win the most egregious violations perpetrated by Greenburg, Rodman, Kalish and three other defendants, but they had to work extremely hard to win.
There is absolutely no percentage in ATF chasing unregistered MGs unless the perp has a pile of very serious NFA or other charges already.
I have yet to hear of a successful prosecution of someone having an unregistered MG, especially if his intent was to destroy it to comply with the law.
You guys just like to scare yourselves!The oft repeated 10 years and $250,000 has yet to occur for an NFA violation. Greenburg et al violated more than a several basic and longstanding federal NFA laws and in spades, so to speak, and got off with losing their licenses and some months in jail. The jail time was mostly due to being incredibly stupid about fighting the charges.
Anyone who makes the claim that the 10/$250,000 fine on for an NFA conviction has no clue and if you guys want to really understand what happens when the US attorneys go after someone for NFA violations Google up Greenburg, Rodman, Kalish vs US (not sure of the names of the other three) and read through the transcript of the trial and appeals. It is pretty typical. FWIW
 

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It's not worth losing sleep over. I don't sleep well enough as it is.
Say "Thank-you" but no thanks and walk away.
Let someone else have the headache and heartache. You just can't be sure and you never know.
Not worth it IMHO.
And if you don't believe I'm being honest, just try approaching me with one and see what I do.
CaptMax
 

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I recently received three, unregistered DEWATed HMGs from a PD that got from them a museum that did not want them any more. They were transferred to me on F5s with an addendum on each form that they were to be destroyed. They were transferred to me on F5s from the PD on the advice and assistance of ATF/NFA. I asked a specialist if an unregistered MG could be turned over to a PD and then the PD could transfer it to a CII on F5 for legal destruction. The specialist agreed that this would be OK. So, there is a legal avenue for having unregistered MGs destroyed.
Someone possessing an unregistered MG can take it to a welding shop and have the receiver torch destroyed to current import specs. ATF is very happy if this is done as destruction is their ideal solution. ATF has no interest or motivation to chase down unregistered MGs for several reasons. The primary reason is that it is now a part of the court record that ATF's registry is about 50% accurate along with many examples of erroneous and inaccurate registrations. ATF can no longer claim that the registry is 100% accurate which was cornerstone of their prosecutorial fortress.
ATF has lost a number of very heavily prosecuted cases in recent years where specific and actual NFA violations occurred but they could not win a prosecution. Usually they have to step for lying to an agent, mail fraud, filing false documents, etc, etc.They recently managed to win the most egregious violations perpetrated by Greenburg, Rodman, Kalish and three other defendants, but they had to work extremely hard to win.
There is absolutely no percentage in ATF chasing unregistered MGs unless the perp has a pile of very serious NFA or other charges already.
I have yet to hear of a successful prosecution of someone having an unregistered MG, especially if his intent was to destroy it to comply with the law.
You guys just like to scare yourselves!The oft repeated 10 years and $250,000 has yet to occur for an NFA violation. Greenburg et al violated more than a several basic and longstanding federal NFA laws and in spades, so to speak, and got off with losing their licenses and some months in jail. The jail time was mostly due to being incredibly stupid about fighting the charges.
Anyone who makes the claim that the 10/$250,000 fine on for an NFA conviction has no clue and if you guys want to really understand what happens when the US attorneys go after someone for NFA violations Google up Greenburg, Rodman, Kalish vs US (not sure of the names of the other three) and read through the transcript of the trial and appeals. It is pretty typical. FWIW
Fully concur with what Bob has written. I have been keeping up this for a number of years and through a mutual friend who works for ATF I have yet to learn of a successful prosecution of an individual who was not involved in another crime for having an unregistered NFA firearm. These sort of things normally end with a stern warning and the surrender of the firearm, nothing more if that was the only possible charge.

In one episode I was directly involved with about nine years ago that involved the sale of an estate of a C7 SOT. I was told that if I found any unregistered receivers or post May samples the family was not interested in selling I could have them cut up and all I need to do was send a letter stating that it had been done. No threats of prosecution or anything similar, all very straight forward, I was trusted to do the right thing if the situation came up. Fortunately it didn't.

All of my interactions with ATF have been very professional and accomplished in a friendly manner. My last inspection probably lasted a lot longer than it needed to because the agent was interested in USPSA shooting and we spent a good deal of time talking about that. No question there are some agents that hate guns and gun people but so far I have not met one.
 

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Due to being raised on a farm in the county and through business dealings and finally because of all the registered stuff I have and all the shooting I've done out by myself or at " shoots " , all the local Sheriffs from the '60s to now have been family friends and personal friends .
if this was to occur to me , and it has several times , I would look at it to make sure it's FA . I would inform them of my findings , the law , and what THEY need to do to correct it and what THEY must NOT do to land in jail . If they do not want to mess with it ( most do not want to bother with it or are scared to ) I tell them that if they wish I will take it , strip it of parts , clean all traces of prints , etc off it , call the sheriff , and he or a deputy will swing by and pick it up .
The Sheriff will then run a trace on it . If legal , I would assist in putting it back together and getting it back to it's rightfull owner ( never has happened yet ) . If not registered , I will keep the parts for my time and trouble . I then add the parts to my spare parts pile or sell the kit to help fund the youth shooting groups I help out with.
We did this to the last two M16s I recovered that were Vietnam bring backs . The kits went into a couple retro builds and the recievers went to repair a couple of worn out YCSO rifles , so they are serving the community to this day .
Not everyone has the contacts I do , though . Then again , if you don't , why not ?
Chris
 

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We did this to the last two M16s I recovered that were Vietnam bring backs . The kits went into a couple retro builds and the recievers went to repair a couple of worn out YCSO rifles , so they are serving the community to this day .
Not everyone has the contacts I do , though . Then again , if you don't , why not ?
Chris
Educate me. How is it legal to use receivers from a stolen, unregistered gun? Im not asking to be a dick, Im asking for those of us who find ourselves in similar situations. As you stated, if you are in this business long enough, somebody is bound to bring you a gun from grandpas attic that has a happy switch and govt markings.
 

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Educate me. How is it legal to use receivers from a stolen, unregistered gun? Im not asking to be a dick, Im asking for those of us who find ourselves in similar situations. As you stated, if you are in this business long enough, somebody is bound to bring you a gun from grandpas attic that has a happy switch and govt markings.
No , that's a good question .
The guns were stolen from Vietnam . The Statute of Limitations of 19 years had run out , the US Army had destroyed any records of the event if they had any ( prob'ly written off as lost in the field ) , and the " owner " ( thief ) had passed away . The guns were found stashed in a shed by a crew that were helping the widow out . Her son was a felon , so she wanted nothing to do with them .
Noone higher up was interested in these for any reason or use , so the sheriff's office recieved permission to keep them . As they were looking to repair a couple of more modern guns , they were not interested in the retro parts . I had no black rifles nor intrest in them , so I sold the kits off . It did take more than a few years ( close to 10 , IIRC ) for all this to run it's course , the widow passing away in the interm , but it all was above board and all legal . I would think , but I do not know , that these were added to the registery as post-86 dealer samples or LE use only .
Chris
 
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