[phalanx]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,363203,00.html
The article is correct in saying Locomotives have done this for years.
Thats why they can leave Cali ,and go to Va. on one tank of fuel and have fuel left over.
I wondered when someone was going to snap to that ,but if you ever need to change out that battery ,you just totaled the car.
And the Ethanol deal really sucks ,its one reason your food bill is getting so high , its stupid to make fuel out of food.
But the Big Three are very pissed at big Oil and the Feds doing this as fast as they did with High prices and taxes.
And they said they were going to try and shut down ,or hurt Big Oil for hurting them.
And Chevy seems to be starting. Somehow the Gov. will do something if this stuff takes off ,special plugs on your house with a meter so they can charge Tax on you charging your car .
No way are they going to lose out on charging big Tax.

 

[AaronHorrocks]

The Volt's internal-combustion generator engine powers only the batteries, not the car's wheels, meaning that it needs to run at only one speed, maximizing efficiency. Modern diesel-electric rail locomotives have used the same principle for decades.

I have tried to explain this concept to people for YEARS, regaurding Diesel-Electric trains and they just don't get it. They'll despute all the facts that I toss out there... That all modern trains are Diesel-Electric, that the Diesel engines power the electric motors, that it's more effecient.

They tell me that the trains are diesel, they can hear 'em roar. They tell me they aren't electric. They tell me that converting power from the engine to a generator, then powering a motor at the wheels can't save energy, that you'll loose too much in the conversions. And all of 'em have college degrees!

 

[phalanx]

Aaron ,then they are butt stupid ,the Submarine was the first to use this kind of drive.
The History Channel has shown how this works several times ,and people still don't get it.

They said that a Locomotive fully loaded down still gets over 70 MPG.
I was wondering when someone would snap to this ,GM is going to have to educate people who think this is something new ,and its been around even before WW2.

 

[Rory]

without knowing much about the efficiencies of running the generator vs running a variable speed engine for motion it does sound highly improbable from the outside perspective. conservation of energy and all. that would be from a very very base level and generic view point. with a little more info and especially the idea of the engine running only for generation that is a far more efficient use of the fuel powered motor it makes more sense.


r

 

[AaronHorrocks]

Let's say a fuel powered engine is 30% efficient at best. BEST.
Plugging a motor to it, Generating power off if it is 85% efficient, from that 30%. So now we're down to 25.5% efficiency.

Then we go ahead and power an electric motor at 85% efficiency, and we're at a total fuel efficiency of 21.675% for a Diesel-Electric.

Compare that to a car's engine which has the best efficiency of 30%, unfortunetly it almost NEVER reaches it. Your transmission is mostly dead weight. Powering your transmission sucks up lots of energy. And then on top of that, because of acceration, because of changing gears (you cycle through the tach over and over), stopping, idling, your efficiency is actually spending most of it's time in the 5% to 15% range. Only when you're on the highway, at a constant speed, at crusing speed, at peak efficienct RPM are you even close to 20%.

 

[Rory]

no i get it but giving reason for the generic speed bumps.


r

 

[Bill S]

And the Ethanol deal really sucks ,its one reason your food bill is getting so high , its stupid to make fuel out of food.

Absolutely. Especially when it returns so little value. And when food by-products could be used for ethanol while using the food itself as food.

Our country isn't the only one making profits off of food crops while shorting its own people. I was talking a couple days ago with a friend from Argentina. The big problem there is that "farms" are all "farming corporations" owned by wealthy investors who often live outside the country. They can make more money selling grain and beef to foreign countries (such as China) than selling at prices that Argentine people can afford. So for the sake of lining the pockets of a handfull of corporations, the people are facing food shortages and inflated food prices. (We should learn from their problems - we're not too far behind them.)

 

[phalanx]

When i got out of Collage ,after my tour in the Navy ,My first Job was at EMD ,that is, Electro Motive Division ,Then owned by GM , they built the worlds finest Locomotives ,and still do . It was hard ass work ,but it was amazing the pride that place had in these Machines. EMD is on its own now and still one of the most productive Company's in America ,but they love a low profile ,Train people are just that way .don't ask me.
Back to this type drive, ,I wondered even through the 1970s oil embargo why the hell don't cars run like a Locomotive,this is so stupid. Yet no one did it ,and i applaud Chevy for being the first before the Japs did.
Its simple ,the people giving Aaron crap are wrong ,the engine/generators are not running the traction motors ,the traction motors run off the Battery's ,the
engines/generators called ,MGS ,for short ,power the battery's and keep them at peak. The Battery's are the only thing that have the Amp capacity to get a 20 ton Locomotive and its load moving with out a transmission.When you hear those Diesels under load it isn't because they are the prime mover ,it is because they are replacing the expended energy the battery's are loosing under stress.once moving they can kick back ,exit some cylinders and just charge away. But a vehicle isn't trying to move 250k tons of freight,so this makes it even simpler. A locomotive engineer is not Bubba ,they have a Degree in this. This is on a very large scale, so him and his computers regulate draw to charge ratios. Computers also regulate slippage of the wheels on the traction motor against the track.
Now The Car: The problem Chevy had to overcome was the American consumer ,they are only trained to get in ,turn key ,and go.
A computer has to think for them as they are not a Locomotive , in starting up and stop and go traffic ,the on board has to know when to start the little engine generator to keep the battery's at peak. This will be nothing more than a little DC generator battery charger ,not even a 3kw with two little cylinders , but your average driver only needs to drive ,so the Computer will have to be the Engineer so to speak. To make it simple look at the Battery's as a reservoir of massive power when needed , and only a trickle if that is the case. At times the car will be cruising on battery for some time ,other times it will be needed to haul ass and the Battery's will need charge to stay at peak.
Why is this a kick ass system ? well if i were a transmission guy i would be looking for a new job. In measuring MPG ,all you are doing is charging battery's and what the charger uses ,so 150 MPG is a Conservative estimate at best ,i have seen Locomotives get 250. This is measured by the miles covered VS the fuel the charger needs.
There is no energy loss ,you lose more energy through a transmission than you do here.
Ahhh the big plus to me and you other lead foots , a car with a 70 HP electric motor on a 175 dcm traction motor in brake HP will deliver 450 HP!
No **** , Now tell me thats energy loss
This should have been done 30 years ago ,but we didn't have a computer to think for a driver.

 

[phalanx]

Sorry: i just want to say this to Bill , ethanol is stupid ,and with this drive it isn't even needed . 150 MPG ,crap you could drive all Month for 30 bucks.
I am Oil Field ,and twice i have been called in sense gas has gotten this high.
I told them i now work for them ,but i also worked for EMD ,and someones going to break the ice.
I explained this drive system ,showed them on charts ,they sat there staring at me like WTF.
And these guys are supposed to be smart market analyst ,well you charged to much ,to fast ,you pissed off the people ,The car makers are in a panic for survival.
HELLO ! Put that in you MF pipe and smoke it.
GM is not your Bit$ch ,and your messed up ,and they will make this work ,its their job and survival and you screwed them when they asked you to slow down.
I was right WOOOO HOOOO ,whos your daddy....

 

[overbore]

Info type question

I am NOT, repeat NOT BEING a wise guy; rather a certified dumb ---it. Why could we not take a small clapped out P/U truck, remove the unecessary stuff, put a small diesel generator in the bed, batteries where the engine "useta was" and electric drive motors to turn a pulley on the differential? HMMMMM? Overbore

 

[Rory]

Absolutely. Especially when it returns so little value. And when food by-products could be used for ethanol while using the food itself as food.

Our country isn't the only one making profits off of food crops while shorting it own people. I was talking a couple days ago with a friend from Argentina. The big problem there is that "farms" are all "farming corporations" owned by wealthy investors who often live outside the country. They can make more money selling grain and beef to foreign countries (such as China) than selling at prices that Argentine people can afford. So for the sake of lining the pockets of a handfull of corporations, the people are facing food shortages and inflated food prices. (We should learn from their problems - we're not too far behind them.)

them sounds like words from a damned leftist commie!

phal i don't see anyone here giving aaron crap. i saw the volt at the detroit auto show in 07. i think that whole thing is amazing. with all of the physics i have taken and other such stuffs i never really thought of it. i had no idea until looking at the volt and hearing people there talk about it that trains ran like that. never really been that up close with the inner workings you dig?

put that type system in a small car and i am all over it.

rory

 

[Pvt.Joker]

OK, first off, aaron- here's your turd. Happy now, Rory? Aaron has been officially given crap.

Now, as to the Volt, here's a question for you- just HOW small is the powerplant needed to run that generator motor? If it's small enough, could you set up a solar-powered hydrogen gas generator, to create and store just enough hydrogen to run a very small engine to charge the batteries? At that point, the only consumables the car would need to run on would be sunlight and... water. Plus, ZERO emmissions.

 

[Rory]

i don't know about down there in the hill of TN joker but up here in ohio we only get about enough sunlight to keep people from offing themselves in droves. ohio gray skies aplenty.

that said i like where you are going with this.

lets look at a stripped down version. think, non speed demon but city car aka the "grocery getter"

how can we modify an omni / lynx / horizon / colt to be able to reach its 70-75 mph at the high end. super light weight. no frills. i mean if possible i would like an air conditioner. i can deal without all the power doo dads but i need AC.

so how low can we go with this stuff? is there a small bio diesel engine if need be or as joker s running with this a hydro power plant? how much more weight would the solar cells add? are we then charging the same batteries with solar that we are charging with the generator? can it shut one off when in need?


r

 

[Bill S]

Originally Posted by Bill S
Our country isn't the only one making profits off of food crops while shorting its own people. I was talking a couple days ago with a friend from Argentina....

them sounds like words from a damned leftist commie!

Hmmmmm..... Seems to me I knew this guy whose Dad came from Argentina, and the Dad resembled your accusation.....

 

[phalanx]

Rory your my friend ,i wasn't talking about people here ,i was referring to the people Aaron said was giving him crap about it not being possible.
Joker ,what you are saying could work ,but the big three want to stay away from anything Hydrogen . Remember ,you are dealing with Wal Mart Shoppers driving these Cars.
Overbore ,the battery's you would need are hybrids ,the motor you need isn't just any motor ,its a traction motor .
Then while driving you would need gages to tell you battery cond. Amp draw ,peak ,A voltage regulator to keep your generator from frying the battery's ,something to regulate the RPM of your generator or you haven't saved anything on fuel , Like i said ,this is an entirely new vehicle.
This isn't a prius ,this thing if not governed can out run a Ferrari.
A traction motor can go from 0 to what ever ,it doesn't need to deal with a torque range like a gas or diesel engine ,its only limited by its load on how fast it gets there, and it needs no transmission.
A locomotive has someone who monitors all of this ,and being on tracks he doesn't need to watch traffic ,I believe computer technology now can do this in a vehicle.all Mr.John Q Public does is stop and go like he does now.
EMD has done it in their switchers for about 10 years now with little problems.
A guy jumps in it and drives it around ,and can be dumb as a post.
Plugging in this car isn't a demand ,it only saves you $$ on fuel .If you don't care then you get in and the Generator starts right up to help you remember.
The Battery's getting 40 miles shows i was wrong ,GM isn't going the green movement way ,like a prius ,they are going with the less expensive Cad Battery's. No matter the car will still do 150 MPG.
It doesn't surprise me that it was GM who did this ,they owned EMD ,and have a stake in all the technological advances EMD has made over the last 40 years. And why they told Congress that in no way can we make a Gas engine do 70 MPG , They were interrupted and told that they will make an engine that can ,regardless of HP. When everyone else was running around trying to figure out how to make their own Prius ,GM went to EMD.
You bet your ass people will buy this ,and if i were Toyota selling the gutless prius ,this would not be good. EMD has 90% of all the patents on this ,GM was only afraid to let this go on a public that had no idea how this works.

 

[kansasrebel]

I hope GM can make it work. I seen one of the Volt's on ABC news the other night. I just hope it's cheap enough where alot of people can buy one and SCREW ALL the countries that are screwing us right now!!!

 

[phalanx]

GM was pretty pissed when it left Congress , It was like they were picking on the people who own Hummer and most of the SUVs
I only covered the basics ,this is still hard core stuff.
EMD has to figure out how to shrink a 20 ton SD 755 down to the size of a family car.
But EMD owns most of the patents and all the technology ,and it isn't easy to copy either ,if you have never done it.
They stay quiet and in their own little world over there ,and no one else in the world makes them as good as they do.
They were one of the American Company's that China hasn't been able to control or buy into ,and one of only a few that needs to be recognized as something still made here with pride.
I'm not a GM fan ,but this is great ,better than a green car ,less emissions ,more HP ,and home grown.
I hope they can pull it off ,EMD isn't real social ,and guards their secrets well.
And i know the Japs have no idea of what it takes to do this or they would have by now.
You can play with the theory and try ,but you are going to smoke a lot of stuff learning.

 

[Pvt.Joker]

Well, as far as the solar-powered hydogen generator is concerned, is was just an idea to create an on-board fuel supply from something as basic as water. The solar cells could be used to trickle-charge the regular batteries while parked, as well as building just enough stored hydrogen to start and get the generator engine up and running. The biggest problem with hydrogen powered cars today is that they are all being developed along the lines of the fuel cell technology from 1960s NASA, as a sole power source to try and run the drive motor. And sure, while a fuel cell IS a more efficent use of hydrogen as a fuel than burning it in a full-sized "normal" auto engine, that does not mean that a small engine cannot burn it to power a generator along the lines of the Volt. And a small enough motor might be able to be supported by a hydrogen generator, rather than storing hydrogen in pressure tanks and requiring a new infrastructure to support that. And infrastructure issues DO play a huge role in whatever new technologies succeed or fail, regardless of the relative efficency of the powerplant and fuel of choice. As for air conditioning and other luxuries, they ARE needed to make these cars marketable to the average consumer. Here in the South, with 90 degree days and 70%+ humidity, just try to sell a car without A/C and see how far you get. But again, with solar panels generating extra current, an A/C unit or small heat pump perhaps could remain on while the car is parked, thereby maintaining a more constant inside temperature rather than having to fight to pump built-up heat of the day out of the cabin. The same computer(s) that manage the power system can be used for much of this sort of thing, assuming that there is a way to get solar panels built in that are efficent enough to generate current sufficent to meet the power requirements until the generator is once again fired up, to keep from draining the batteries before the car is on the road.

Now if GM can just resist the urge to price the stupid thing at $100,000+ or some such astronomical price point, and thereby scare off the average consumer from considering the technology. Efficencies of scale WILL come into play, IF they can get the buyers into the vehicles and then apply the basic technology across a variety of models and price points. After all, if they don't SOMEBODY else will- and our luck, it will probably be China sooner than later. But at least we have the jump on them, IF our auto industry can get their act together and not drag this out for 4 or 5 years. It's a shame that Chrysler's R&D system can't be used to speed up development along with GM's excess production capacity, in a joint venture to share the resulting technology and spread the costs out, while improving the chances of the public's acceptance of this "new" technology (Hey; look, now EVERYONE'S doing it this way. It worked for the V-8; it could work for this too)

 

[hagar]

Question, how long do the batteries last and how much do they cost when they are replaced ?

 

[Pvt.Joker]

Question, how long do the batteries last and how much do they cost when they are replaced ?

And can we develop an industry that efficently and economically takes these used batteries and overhauls them (assuming that they can be made in a manner that allows them to be overhauled rather than strictly as a consumable with the attendant disposal issues) as part of the infrastructure for these cars, until we can find a better method of storing electricity?