[jeep]

Hello

Some days ago I found the 1991a4 page.
I own a 1917 A1 but don't have lot information's about all the markings I can find on my 1917. I also would be interest in knowing the date of manufacture.

Thank you very much for helping me!

Kurt

 

[Lucky#13]

Production Order # S3878 for 12,065 1917A1s was placed with RIA in 1944. The assigned serial numbers were 715821-727885. I have no more detailed info than that, but yours could have been made in 44 or 45. Dolf Goldsmith shows #723910 and says it was made about June of 1945. You have a nice piece of history there!

 

[jeep]

Lucky 13

Do you have some Information's about the embossed: crown, the P and FK?

 

[Lucky#13]

FK is Frank Krack, the Inspector at RIA through about 1946. The P is a puzzler. That often is just a generic proof mark, but it would be unusual I think on the right side plate there. There are some components that I would expect to have that, but the only mfg that I know used that on the receivers was Saginaw, and that was on the top plate/left side plate edge on 1919 production. The crown I can't make out clearly, but perhaps it is a British Commonwealth or European mark, if they had their hands on your gun at one time? I don't think it's a U.S. marking.

Edit: Just noted the RIA mark below the main engraving, next to that "crown" marking. That suggests that the gun was rebuilt there at RIA, at some point after it was originally made. Does your bottom plate have the Drawing number and RIA code? That might also be a sign of a rebuild. Usually RIA did not mark bottom plates (and certain other components) unless they were made for replacement parts.

 

[jeep]

Lucky 13

You are right! I found what you described!
I add some more pictures. May be you can tell me something about…..

 

[KABAR2]

There appears to be a letter under the crown can you tell us what it is that may help tell what country it was from.

EDIT......
O.K. I just noticed that you are in Switzerland, I am going to make an assumption that this may be from a Swiss proof house when it was brought into Switzerland.

 

[loboslanding]

Jeep, can you post a pic of the whole gun...we'd like to see it.

 

[frazer42]

Crown Mark

I can't see the pic with the crown in it but my F/A BAR is a Royal Typewriter, Augusta Arsenal rework. It has a crown and European proofs next to the GI proofs, re-import obviously. Belgium, Denmark, Sweden? Frazer

 

[kkkriverrats]

Marks

Lucky 13

You are right! I found what you described!
I add some more pictures. May be you can tell me something about…..

The first picture shows the drawing number of the part. The "D" means the physical size of the drawing, be it paper, velumn, or mylar. The "D" is the ANSI standard size of 22"X34". ANSI letter size drawings A, B, C, D, and E are all multiples of the A size drawing 8 1/2"X11" standard lettersize paper. The system of numbering the drawings started with D-12345 then evolved to D 12345 (no dash) then in the early "50's to D12345 (no dash or space) the -13 indicates the version or revision number of the drawing used to produce the part. The RIA indicates the Rock Island Arsenal, Rock Island, Illinois.

The third picture shows the famous "flaming bomb" mark of the US Army Ordnance Department, and is found on almost everything procured by the Ordnance Department. I have found it on canvas goods.

My Saginaw/Izzy A4/A6 has the "P" and "flaming bomb" marks on the top of the left sideplate at the joint with the top plate, most of the internals have SG (Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Corp., Saginaw, Michigan) manufacturing markings. Saginaw also had a factory in Grand Rapids, Michigan and marked those parts S"G" or sometimes "S"G Saginaw was by the largest builder of 1919A4 and and the only WWII builder of A6's, although some A4's were field converted to A6's.

 

[Lucky#13]

The third picture shows the famous "flaming bomb" mark of the US Army Ordnance Department, and is found on almost everything procured by the Ordnance Department. I have found it on canvas goods.

True. However, there are very specific patterns in how these were used by the 1917/1919 mfgs. That third image shows the bomb in an unusual place for RIA. In several examples that I have, or have seen, where the gun was rebuilt at Rock Island, that little flaming bomb is on the top edge of the left side plate, near the forward end of the top plate.

My Saginaw/Izzy A4/A6 has the "P" and "flaming bomb" marks on the top of the left sideplate at the joint with the top plate, most of the internals have SG (Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Corp., Saginaw, Michigan) manufacturing markings. Saginaw also had a factory in Grand Rapids, Michigan and marked those parts S"G" or sometimes "S"G Saginaw was by the largest builder of 1919A4 and and the only WWII builder of A6's, although some A4's were field converted to A6's.

The markings you describe are on every Saginaw 1919, with only the rarest exceptions. That's one of the first things to look for to positively ID a Saginaw LSP or top plate. In this instance, the "P" and the flaming bomb can be either entirely on the top plate surface, the top edge of the LSP, or most often overlapping both. Since the parts kits usually get separated during de mil here, that's why it is so common to find partial- but not matching- portions of those marks. I rarely see a kit where the top plate properly matches the LSP.

I am not familiar with the Grand Rapids markings you describe. Have you seen that on 1919 parts, of perhaps on M1 Carbine stuff (which I have no familiarity with.)?

Back to jeep's 1917A1, I think that definitely is a replacement bottom plate. The -13 revision number is pretty late, and I have seen that and other variations before. That IS an unusual location, though. Usually it is in the center section of the bottom plate, rather than on that flat. Also, since I have had little opportunity to examine water cooled guns, I can't say if those "A1" markings on the trunnion and jacket cap are unusual. Maybe some of the guys who are in the full auto circles have seen more of these and would know.

 

[southbysouthwest]

......Back to jeep's 1917A1, I think that definitely is a replacement bottom plate. The -13 revision number is pretty late, and I have seen that and other variations before. That IS an unusual location, though. Usually it is in the center section of the bottom plate, rather than on that flat. ......

Lucky#13,

You might recall that I too have a rear 1917A1 reciever box section with L/R plates and top/bottoms attached that had been demilled thru the trunion area. It also shows the number D35392-2 RIA stamped in the same location as this one is on the bottom plate edge.

 

[Lucky#13]

Lucky#13,

You might recall that I too have a rear 1917A1 reciever box section with L/R plates and top/bottoms attached that had been demilled thru the trunion area. It also shows the number D35392-2 RIA stamped in the same location as this one is on the bottom plate edge.

Ah! I had forgotten that! I have several RIA bottom plates with variations on the revision suffix, as well as ones that were specifically made for converting the 1917s to 1917A1, where the drawing number is different altogether. But those are the only TWO I have seen with the number in that location. I stand corrected!

 

[CaliBoundAR15]

Lucky,
Also remember that the 1917A1 LSP I am using is an original 1917 one. It has the groove for the bottom plate visible in it:

And the bottom plate that is attached to it now is a RIA:

 

[Lucky#13]

Yep! I bet a bunch of you will find that on one of your kits. Thousands of the original 1917s were converted to 1919A4s at Rock Island. There you see the drawing number for the conversion bottom plates. The specs are just slightly different that the later, 1919A4 bottom plate. The difference I have observed is in the groove for the side plates. The 1917 side plates had rounded edges from being peened into the original, internal bottom plates. The conversion bottom plates seem to have a radiused groove, rather than being square cornered as on the A4 bottom plates.

CaliBound- does your LSP have a little flaming bomb on the top edge, near the front of the top plate area?

 

[CaliBoundAR15]

Lucky,

Yes, it sure does!

 

[kkkriverrats]

True. However, there are very specific patterns in how these were used by the 1917/1919 mfgs. That third image shows the bomb in an unusual place for RIA. In several examples that I have, or have seen, where the gun was rebuilt at Rock Island, that little flaming bomb is on the top edge of the left side plate, near the forward end of the top plate.



The markings you describe are on every Saginaw 1919, with only the rarest exceptions. That's one of the first things to look for to positively ID a Saginaw LSP or top plate. In this instance, the "P" and the flaming bomb can be either entirely on the top plate surface, the top edge of the LSP, or most often overlapping both. Since the parts kits usually get separated during de mil here, that's why it is so common to find partial- but not matching- portions of those marks. I rarely see a kit where the top plate properly matches the LSP.

I am not familiar with the Grand Rapids markings you describe. Have you seen that on 1919 parts, of perhaps on M1 Carbine stuff (which I have no familiarity with.)?

Back to jeep's 1917A1, I think that definitely is a replacement bottom plate. The -13 revision number is pretty late, and I have seen that and other variations before. That IS an unusual location, though. Usually it is in the center section of the bottom plate, rather than on that flat. Also, since I have had little opportunity to examine water cooled guns, I can't say if those "A1" markings on the trunnion and jacket cap are unusual. Maybe some of the guys who are in the full auto circles have seen more of these and would know.

I guess I thought that since the original question was from Switzerland that the writer may not have been familliar with the "flaming bomb" rather than the nuances of placement of it.

I believe that one of my internals has "SG" markings, next time I tear it down I'll try to get a picture of it

 

[Lucky#13]

I guess I thought that since the original question was from Switzerland that the writer may not have been familliar with the "flaming bomb" rather than the nuances of placement of it.

I believe that one of my internals has "SG" markings, next time I tear it down I'll try to get a picture of it

I am just trying to supplement your information. I greatly appreciate your contribution, as it specifically helps distinguish SG markings from RIA.

 

[kkkriverrats]

I am just trying to supplement your information. I greatly appreciate your contribution, as it specifically helps distinguish SG markings from RIA.

I am getting older, sometimes I dont't get it right or don't type it right. Saginaw Grand Rapids sometimes marked parts S.G. Didn't include that in my post. I will attach a photo of my barrel extension with S.G. markings Drawing # is D8259-26

 

[Conch1]

For some reason I cannot see the original photo, but from the description I suspect that the "P" is the proof mark that designates that the gun was successfully test fired at the arsenal before issue, like those on Garands, carbines, Victory Revolvers, 1911a1's, etc. I have this "P" stamped on the top plate of a couple of my 1919's along with the little flaming bomb.

 

[Lucky#13]

I am getting older, sometimes I dont't get it right or don't type it right. Saginaw Grand Rapids sometimes marked parts S.G. Didn't include that in my post. I will attach a photo of my barrel extension with S.G. markings Drawing # is D8259-26

I have seen that. I never knew that the S.G. with the periods designated the Grand Rapids facility. Good info to have. Thanks for adding to the knowledge base!

Conch, you may be right. Saginaw marked its guns with an absolute consistency as you describe. Not sure about RIA, but I never get to see the original right side plates! I just have not seen the "P" mark in a photo before. It may be exactly as you describe, but I am not sure if that was standard practice at RIA, based on photos I've seen. Might be indicative of test firing after a rebuild too. Just guessing! The guy who would probably know this is Lorenzo, but he no longer is active here. Much of what I know was learned from him. He saw tons of these beasts first hand and learned the markings history from detailed study.