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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I just saw posted on the NFATCA Facebook page they are starting a kickstarter for the new Vickers book.
This seem bizarre to me, thoughts?

12168CEA-A72E-44F5-A305-64B7E2929826.png





Here is the Kickstarter link:

Do you think if we deposited money over a year ago we get the upgraded book? Haha
Guess I should just hope I get a book.
 

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I don't know what a kickstarter is, I already paid for my copy. Why would I pay more ?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I‘m not a expert but my understanding is, it is a way to raise funds (crowdsource) to do a project. Normally you get extras versus the future retail item. Plus you can buy more content such as the videos and merchandise they are offering.
There are also many well documents risks associated with Kickstarter projects and many cases where items have never delivered.

The part that confuses me is they say the goal needs to be raised by July 9th. Or what??

What do the folks that paid at fall 2018 creek get we were the real early investors?

***None of this is directed at Dolf.
Yes I am a early depositor for the book.
 

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I‘m not a expert but my understanding is, it is a way to raise funds (crowdsource) to do a project. Normally you get extras versus the future retail item. Plus you can buy more content such as the videos and merchandise they are offering.
There are also many well documents risks associated with Kickstarter projects and many cases where items have never delivered.

The part that confuses me is they say the goal needs to be raised by July 9th. Or what??

What do the folks that paid at fall 2018 creek get we were the real early investors?

***None of this is directed at Dolf.
Yes I am a early depositor for the book.
Kickstarter projects have a fundraising “clock”. If the project does not hit the minimum threshold, then no one is charged their pledge


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the explanation. I only have minimal knowledge of the process.

Overall I am annoyed there is no acknowledgement of all of the folks that were the true early investor /buyers of the book or any effort made to contact us from Chipotle publishing stand point.
 

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Most likely what it means is that Dan Shea already spent the money he was supposed to use and promised Dolf he'd use to publish the book. Now they're looking for a way to bail Dan out by sucking more money out of the unsuspecting public.

Just my opinion of course.

Frank
 

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The deadline is too short. I have joined several Kickstarter campaigns and they were all 3-6 months or longer. One was for A PEN that was four months in funding.

In any event, I'M IN!

If it is not fully funded by the deadline, no money comes out of contributors' pockets. I'd consider it a safe bet.
 

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to those reding this and not in on the last little bit of Drama - Dolf sent all who had prepaid letter offering to refund $$, and I think Most of us stayed in. Dolf as the author gets so many books to sell as a part of his payment for the work. Buying direct from him is money in his pocket, Not the publisher. ( As I understand the system) I sent a note to Dolf letting him know we were not questioning his scruples, and I believe several others did - there is a string on this subject on this board. I can't speak to the publisher or Dan's involvement - I know some here have cast aspersions and assigned motivations, but I do know Dan, and this all seems a little petty and not in character at all for him. The publishing, training and gun shop are all run by different people as I understand it. Has anyone called the publisher ot see what to the problem is ? I am not persoanlly losing sleep over it, but it would be nice to get the book out.
 

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Most likely what it means is that Dan Shea already spent the money he was supposed to use and promised Dolf he'd use to publish the book. Now they're looking for a way to bail Dan out by sucking more money out of the unsuspecting public.

Had the exact same thought. I also find it interesting that they are advertising this as a "new" project after they have been advertising it for over a year.

I am not spending any money on this until copies are actually available for purchase.
 

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Hey guys! I’ve seen a bunch of comments on here and I want to apologize for any confusion the Kickstarter may have caused. I’m the Publisher over at Chipotle Publishing. We’ve been working with Dolf on preparing this Vickers book for about 6 years (had to scan the original because the publisher didn’t have digital files, had to find all original photos and re-scan, integrate edits from 4 collaborators, rebuilt charts, made trips to the UK for more info, etc.).

Basically, we’re working hard on it and the Kickstarter is the means to upgrade the book (including the Retail Edition) and enable the printing to be done in the U.S.A. (which we feel strongly about, but unfortunately it’s way more expensive to print here). The finished book should be well over 840 pages (more than 270 more than the original).

Dolf pre-purchased books from us and his copies will be sent this fall with all the other pre-orders, so if you did purchase from Dolf, don’t worry, his copies will be delivered. If you purchased the book for less than the Kickstarter price from Dolf, he gave you a good bargain because the retail price for the Retail Edition will be $129.95. We’ve talked to Dolf and he intends to honor his promises of doing personalized signatures and fulfilling the orders he’s taken. We do not have a list of who pre-ordered with him, just a quantity to fulfill this fall.

We’re doing a special Kickstarter Edition that has signatures from Dolf and all 3 Contributing Editors in order to drum up excitement for the project. We will have a backer update video that encourages people to contact Dolf if they want a personalized inscription. I hope this clarifies some things. Please let me know if you have any additional questions about this project.
 

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Here is the text I got from an email at 8am this morning:

I hope all is well for you… please spread the word on this book…

Please check out our Kickstarter on the new book… we’ve taken the 1994 book “The Grand Old Lady of No Mans Land” by Dolf, and added over 270 pages and added color, lots of new info, and an index!

Love Vickers machine guns? So do we! That's why we are excited to announce the launch of the Kickstarter for our new book project, The Vickers Machine Gun: Pride of the Emma Gees, by author Dolf Goldsmith with contributors Richard Fisher, Robert G. Segel and Dan Shea.

Please find the link below for the Kickstarter.

The Vickers Machine Gun: Pride of the Emma Gees

Please forward this around to all who might be interested in the Vickers and the history and technology….

Best Regards,

DAN SHEA | General Director
Office +1.702.208.9735 | Fax +1.702.567.2425
[email protected] | www.phoenixdefence.com
Phoenix Defence

Mailing Address: 631 N. Stephanie Street, No. 282 | Henderson, NV 89014 | USA

Physical Address: 180 Cassia Way, STE 508 | Henderson, NV 89014 | USA
 

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Hey guys! I’ve seen a bunch of comments on here and I want to apologize for any confusion the Kickstarter may have caused. I’m the Publisher over at Chipotle Publishing. We’ve been working with Dolf on preparing this Vickers book for about 6 years (had to scan the original because the publisher didn’t have digital files, had to find all original photos and re-scan, integrate edits from 4 collaborators, rebuilt charts, made trips to the UK for more info, etc.).

Basically, we’re working hard on it and the Kickstarter is the means to upgrade the book (including the Retail Edition) and enable the printing to be done in the U.S.A. (which we feel strongly about, but unfortunately it’s way more expensive to print here). The finished book should be well over 840 pages (more than 270 more than the original).

Dolf pre-purchased books from us and his copies will be sent this fall with all the other pre-orders, so if you did purchase from Dolf, don’t worry, his copies will be delivered. If you purchased the book for less than the Kickstarter price from Dolf, he gave you a good bargain because the retail price for the Retail Edition will be $129.95. We’ve talked to Dolf and he intends to honor his promises of doing personalized signatures and fulfilling the orders he’s taken. We do not have a list of who pre-ordered with him, just a quantity to fulfill this fall.

We’re doing a special Kickstarter Edition that has signatures from Dolf and all 3 Contributing Editors in order to drum up excitement for the project. We will have a backer update video that encourages people to contact Dolf if they want a personalized inscription. I hope this clarifies some things. Please let me know if you have any additional questions about this project.
Thank you Megan for your post, which clarifies a LOT of things for many of the members here! :)
 

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Hey guys! I’ve seen a bunch of comments on here and I want to apologize for any confusion the Kickstarter may have caused. I’m the Publisher over at Chipotle Publishing. We’ve been working with Dolf on preparing this Vickers book for about 6 years (had to scan the original because the publisher didn’t have digital files, had to find all original photos and re-scan, integrate edits from 4 collaborators, rebuilt charts, made trips to the UK for more info, etc.).

Basically, we’re working hard on it and the Kickstarter is the means to upgrade the book (including the Retail Edition) and enable the printing to be done in the U.S.A. (which we feel strongly about, but unfortunately it’s way more expensive to print here). The finished book should be well over 840 pages (more than 270 more than the original).

Dolf pre-purchased books from us and his copies will be sent this fall with all the other pre-orders, so if you did purchase from Dolf, don’t worry, his copies will be delivered. If you purchased the book for less than the Kickstarter price from Dolf, he gave you a good bargain because the retail price for the Retail Edition will be $129.95. We’ve talked to Dolf and he intends to honor his promises of doing personalized signatures and fulfilling the orders he’s taken. We do not have a list of who pre-ordered with him, just a quantity to fulfill this fall.

We’re doing a special Kickstarter Edition that has signatures from Dolf and all 3 Contributing Editors in order to drum up excitement for the project. We will have a backer update video that encourages people to contact Dolf if they want a personalized inscription. I hope this clarifies some things. Please let me know if you have any additional questions about this project.
The only question I have is when you say "We have talked to Dolf" Exactly when was that because he can not even get a return call from Dan or Debbie Shea? You need to understand people especially members here are buying this book and have pre ordered only because of Dolf!
 

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Why USA printing only? There are great book publishers in Canada and many other countries. Is all the paper and are all of the inks sourced and made from domestic materials only too or is it just enough to add “made in USA” on the book that you’re going for?

I hope you respond to the questions about your group not responding to Dolf, who is a cherished and revered member of our community.
 

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The purpose of Kickstarter is to raise capital where insufficient funds exist or where one does not want to invest cash assets. Kickstarter has a very limited ability to "drum up excitement" since the regular Kickstarter enthusiast is also looking for capital ROI. Once marketing efforts, for example through NFATCA, are initiated the outreach is beyond Kickstarter, thus, again, making Kickstarter only a method to appeal for cash.

There is plenty of excitement about this book. Certainly I feel it, since most here have a copy of GOL and I do not. Few, if any, want this book more than me. That said, the excitement has already been long set, and settled, in the MG community as evidenced in part by the pre-payments to Mr. Goldsmith. If anything though, the delays and shenanigans have cooled the excitement and set a sour note concerning the situation at large. From a marketing perspective, this is detrimental and will likely harm sales volumes, and certainly further delay retail sales revenues.

Beyond the core MG fanatics (who have all been waiting and waiting for the excitement to be realized) there are two other core purchasing demographics: first, the book collectors and second the casual historian/ arms enthusiast. The best way to reach either group is via Amazon, which typically means the book must physically exist.

The "perks" offered in the Kickstarter campaign are trinkets. That's coming as a long-time marketing professional. When I pre-fund an initiative, I expect something REALLY big in return.

Most here are pretty savvy about everything except, perhaps, dentistry. But for sake of documentation: book publishing IS a dangerous and expensive proposition, particularly because demand is driven by price, and price is set by volume, and volume demands cash out of hand. I know- my publications are very expensive because my costs are outrageous because I print in small batches. To print the new GOL with a $129 retail price requires 5000 or more copies be run. Figure at that volume $20 cost per copy, that's $100,000 capital investment, one which will not be returned in one year, or three years. Ouch. I got that, believe me.

Looking at the above, I see a lack of capital to invest, or unwillingness to invest operating capital. Thus, I question why more money was spent on several trips to UK when we have email, dropbox, etc. But hey, I've not an early investor as so many others are, so I suppose it's not my place to critique operating funds...but still...

As for made in USA: all of my books are printed in USA. Silly me, I don't even advertise that, and thanks for the reminder. Aside from investing in USA, there is a difference in quality. Some other countries can produce as well, but then shipping costs are outrageous. Chinese quality sucks, but it's cheap (not inexpensive, cheap.) There is also the COVID-type lesson that supply becomes unavailable. So printing is USA does yield superior results, albeit at a cost.

Another way to gain that initial ROI is to short-run the book and sell at a higher price to those who will pay, well, almost anything. However, that option has flown the coop with hundreds of these same "investors" having already pre-purchased. In my observation though, the volume realized by short-term, high priced sales on Amazon are equal or greater to the quantity procured by the core enthusiasts, so there remains one strategy for fast partial ROI.

All said, the best way to drive sales- particularly the critical initial sales to quickly recoup investment- is via the enthusiast community and word of mouth/ SM. I need not reiterate where that stands.

Finally, I'm hoping that the book contains more than the typical "More On..." Collector's Grade books, which is mostly more factory/ user documentation and a few notes of new stuff sourced from a limited core of experts. There are hundreds of mid-level students of the Vickers who possess unique guns, parts, and serial numbers, as demonstrated by internet information exchange. I will say that without that channel my books would have been sadly lacking. In the "olden days" books were researched and compiled by the elite, and the result was, for example, "Backbone of the Wehrmacht" which we now know to be rife with errors and even frauds! Contrast that with "Kriegsmodell" (Steves/Karem) an outstanding volume which source information and images from a large, internet-based community. I do wonder if the book will include any of the reams of info held at Australian War Museum in Canberra, images of the cut-away at Lithgow Small Arms Factory Museum (a few of which were provided to Ms. Shea after our meeting in Bangkok), or images of the Japanese Vickers recovered from a Zero and currently under restoration by a member of Weapons Guild. But, rumor is that the content and layout is already completed.

I wish Ms. Shea the best in quickly reaching the goal of having the book printed and available by Fall 2020. I know we are all eagerly awaiting the new volume.
 

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Abominog makes some very excellent points regarding this issue. For me with all the drama that has been associated with this publication has me all but to the point where I doubt I will buy it if and when it becomes available. I have a copy of the original GOL and with mistakes, warts and all it still serves its purpose very well even after all these years since publication. Any gaps it has are easily made up for with the online sources available.
 

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Hey guys! I’ve seen a bunch of comments on here and I want to apologize for any confusion the Kickstarter may have caused. I’m the Publisher over at Chipotle Publishing. We’ve been working with Dolf on preparing this Vickers book for about 6 years (had to scan the original because the publisher didn’t have digital files, had to find all original photos and re-scan, integrate edits from 4 collaborators, rebuilt charts, made trips to the UK for more info, etc.).

Basically, we’re working hard on it and the Kickstarter is the means to upgrade the book (including the Retail Edition) and enable the printing to be done in the U.S.A. (which we feel strongly about, but unfortunately it’s way more expensive to print here). The finished book should be well over 840 pages (more than 270 more than the original).

Dolf pre-purchased books from us and his copies will be sent this fall with all the other pre-orders, so if you did purchase from Dolf, don’t worry, his copies will be delivered. If you purchased the book for less than the Kickstarter price from Dolf, he gave you a good bargain because the retail price for the Retail Edition will be $129.95. We’ve talked to Dolf and he intends to honor his promises of doing personalized signatures and fulfilling the orders he’s taken. We do not have a list of who pre-ordered with him, just a quantity to fulfill this fall.

We’re doing a special Kickstarter Edition that has signatures from Dolf and all 3 Contributing Editors in order to drum up excitement for the project. We will have a backer update video that encourages people to contact Dolf if they want a personalized inscription. I hope this clarifies some things. Please let me know if you have any additional questions about this project.
Why does everything have to be a gimmick? You are in the business of publishing books and understand the entire production process and costs involved. No one would complain if you just offered the book for sale with different options/costs (basic book, signed book, special edition, etc.). I think it is great to print the book in the USA, but what is most important is the quality of printing. With all due respect, print and sell the book and stop dragging this process on.
 

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Im in for $250. Half a can of .50 ammo to support something that lasts longer than the 10 seconds that ammo would last me is a no brainer. If it doesn't happen your not out anything but if it does you can say you were part of helping Dolfs probably last and definitely one of his best books get published.
 
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