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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Good work there Bill!Are you going to sell conversion kits for these?
:D
Hi rugman. Yes I plan to. No eta on when yet though. Building the final improved prototype now that will allow a quick change from the air cooling shroud to the water jacket with a universal fake receiver for both. Working on getting my belt feed design prototyped for it also.
 

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Hi rugman. Yes I plan to. No eta on when yet though. Building the final improved prototype now that will allow a quick change from the air cooling shroud to the water jacket with a universal fake receiver for both. Working on getting my belt feed design prototyped for it also.
You are working on a belt fed? Is it going to use Lakeside parts, or is it a completely new design?

With ammo prices the way they are, a twin, water cooled, belt fed, crank fired .22lr is about the holy grail.

:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Heres a place to get plans. These guys have been building them for years.

http://www.ccsprints.com/about.php
The coffee cup stain (CCS) print plans are not the same as my prototype kits.

The CCS plans make for an excellent display piece and they look very nice but differ from mine in several respects. CCS plans require you to machine modify the ruger receiver itself and also to mill the trigger guard completely away as well as mill the trigger down to just a little nub. My prototypes require no modification to the ruger at all. The water jacket for the CCS plans 1917 model is fake and not an actual real working water jacket. Mine is a real working water jacket and the first water cooled Ruger 10/22 in the world. The CCS plans cannot accept a crank fire device. Mine does. The CCS plans cannot use more than the 10 rd factory ruger magazine because the plans for the tripod head obstructs any other type of magazine other than the 10 rd factory flush one. Mine can use any magazine that will fit a normal ruger 10/22 giving you up to 50 rd capacity. You will also notice that the CCS 1917 model has its barrel coming out of the middle front of its non working water jacket instead of the bottom front of the water jacket as it should be. I researched everything available before I made my prototypes and endeavored to make sure I overcame any of the above problems with my prototypes. In all my research I found that the only machine gun (not subgun or assault rifle) dress up stocks for the Ruger 10/22 are the CCS plans and the plastic scaled down Mg42 stock. The plastic Mg42 stock is not bad and is an inexpensive way to go. Just install a crank fire device, and a bipod or modify it to fit onto a camera tripod and you have a nice crank fire inexpensive MG lookalike firing cheap .22 ammo. But not being water cooled it will heat up quickly and you will have to let it cool. Fire 50 or 100 rds quickly through a ruger and lightly touch the barrel and you will see what I mean. Two mags for me is 100 rds. You are advised to take a spray bottle of water with you to the range to spray it to cool it down so you can continue shooting as I do with my air cooled 1919 style prototype when I shoot it a lot. With my water cooled prototype I can shoot as much as I like without overheating. I shoot it a lot more than my air cooled one for this reason. The CCS plans are nice, but totally different from my prototypes in specs and function.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You are working on a belt fed? Is it going to use Lakeside parts, or is it a completely new design?

With ammo prices the way they are, a twin, water cooled, belt fed, crank fired .22lr is about the holy grail.

:)
Yes I have completed my design for a belt feed for the Ruger 10/22. It is a completely new design different from anything that has come before. Yet so remarkably simple I'm suprised no one has done it before. It could even be scaled up to use for any magazine fed firearm. I won't say how it works because I plan to patent it as soon as the first prototype is completed and tested for proof of concept. It will not require any modification to the Ruger 10/22 at all. I agree with your last sentence, that is why I am doing this. Funny you should mention a twin water cooled belt fed crank fire .22. I have a design in my head I haven't drawn out yet for a hybrid Browning/Gardner style double barreled, water cooled prototype that will utilize a single water jacket for both barrels like the water cooled Gardner crank fire gun. Imagine my water cooled model with a wider fake receiver and a bit larger diameter water jacket, only belt fed for both ruger receivers instead of gravity fed like the Gardner. Actually the Gardner was modified to accept belt feed and known as the Robertson. Click this link for my post with pics on the Gardner crank gun and this idea of mine to make a double barreled water cooled version of my single barrel water cooled that will look like the Gardner and a Browning had a baby Lol...............

http://floridashootersnetwork.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=31796

Of course in my design, the left ruger having a shell deflector to direct the spent brass downward out the bottom of the fake receiver and the right one ejecting out to the right as normally. Also a flip up fake receiver cover so you could operate the bolt and clear jams on the left ruger receiver. Hemostats work great for clearing jams. Both crank fire devices joined together with a rod so you could adjust the two rugers to fire either sequentially or simultaniously. Able to be dual belt fed or dual magazine fed. Nothing like it exists and it should. :)
 

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It might just be me but I do not see it... not with a clip fed gun. Now if you were to make a small BELT fed gun running from a 10-22 I can see that in semi but I do not see semi shooting from a clip fed 10-22. Why not just take your Ruger and put a crank on it and strap it to a table... The dress up part does not do much for me. I love the MG42 but even the 10-22 dress up kit that looks like a MG42... in the end you just have a weird looking 10-22... I am not trying to kill your idea but if you want my 2 cents... go for the belt fed and skill the look-a-like part.
 

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you have made a belt feed mod for the 10-22?

i am not so interested in the magazine fed 10-22 conversions but a belt fed mod with little to know receiver modification on the 10-22 lets see what ya got.

i would buy that.


oh and where i thought that you went wrong with your other toy that well has been taken off the market.

think of your profit margin as a volume deal instead of per piece. you put enough of your product in as many hands as possible and it makes it a lot harder to change things after the fact. if nothing else a lot more costly for the ones who want the toys to go away.

the way i see it, if whatever it is costs 300 to make. in stead of selling it for 750, sell it for 450. you will get three times as many sales and will make the same amount of money. gun people are getting broke. economy is in the crapper. people can justify and or spend under 500 on stuff way faster than a grand.

r
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It might just be me but I do not see it... not with a clip fed gun. Now if you were to make a small BELT fed gun running from a 10-22 I can see that in semi but I do not see semi shooting from a clip fed 10-22. Why not just take your Ruger and put a crank on it and strap it to a table... The dress up part does not do much for me. I love the MG42 but even the 10-22 dress up kit that looks like a MG42... in the end you just have a weird looking 10-22... I am not trying to kill your idea but if you want my 2 cents... go for the belt fed and skill the look-a-like part.

I appreciate your concerns and would like to go through them in the order you made them.

You wrote..."It might just be me but I do not see it... not with a clip fed gun. Now if you were to make a small BELT fed gun running from a 10-22 I can see that in semi but I do not see semi shooting from a clip fed 10-22."



The average belt of ammo holds 100 rds. True you can link up more belts or metal links, but that is the average single belt. Using a 50 rd magazine, that is one magazine change with my currently magazine fed ruger dress up prototype. In the time (or less) than it takes for you to clear a jam on a belt fed gun I can change mags and equal the 100rd belt in capacity. People tend to forget that belts have to be loaded just as mags do. They don't just keep magically feeding with an unlimited supply. The Russian Degteyarev and Lewis machine guns use a drum magazine or "clips". They are viable machine guns. Some versions of the Hotchkiss machine gun used a limited capacity tray or "clip" as did some Italian machine guns. All viable feeding systems.

The fine Bren machine gun is magazine fed or "clip" fed as you say. (Although a "clip" is a mannlicher style ammunition holding device not synonomous with a magazine and most commonly found in Carcano and Garand rifles). The British Bren machine gun is an excellent machine gun with a proud proven track record. It's box magazine holds 30 rds. That is a full 20 rds less than the capacity of my MWG magazine for my Ruger 10/22. According to your post you "do not see" the Bren or the other machine guns I mentioned as a viable fed firearm since they are "clip" fed.

I understand your reasoning for this and where it stems from but disagree and wanted to point out the above facts. (Some) people who prefer belt fed tend to unreasonably discount any other type of feeding system as not being viable. They tend to forget that machine gun crews were usually composed of more than the one civilian man that they are when they are at the range. As a magazine got close to being empty, the assistant was ready to quickly take the empty one out and replace it with a full one, leaving the gunner able to concentrate on his sights and the enemy. A magazine fed machine gun also has less tendency to jam since its magazine fed system is smoother than a belt feed and not subject to a jumping, cocking, kinked belt or a cartridge not properly loaded into a belt. The early crank fire machine guns (yes they were called machine guns in those days even though they were crank fired)
such as the twin barreled water cooled Gardner gun, could keep up a continuous uninteruped rate of fire. A two-barrelled firearm operated by crank which loaded and fired each barrel in turn. The feed system was a grooved strip into which the rims of a box of cartridges could be slid, after which the box was removed. In public trials the gun fired 10,000 rounds in 27 minutes. See the below pic for an illustration of this on how its magazine was replenished by an assistant while the gunner continued to fire.





A trained crew or even one man can keep up a withering hail of fire even with standard magazine fed machine guns. If you were being fired on by a Bren would you stick your head up because you thought the 30 rd mag was empty and it would take about 2 or 3 seconds to reload a fresh one? I do agree that having the ability to link belts for uninterupted fire is an advantage, and that is why I am working on the belt feed for the 10/22. But I disagree that magazine fed is not also a viable feeding system. In actual combat (discounting some rare instances of human wave charges by Japanese in WW2 and in Korea) a belt fed machine gun is not continuously fired anyway. It is only as civilians at the range that we get our kicks out of hearing that satisfying long 100 rds or more litany of crack, crack, crack, that gives us an ego boost by saying "I have a belt fed". Now that is fine, but not a reason to discount any other type of viable ammunition feeding system. I have attended many machine gun shoots. Dirt gets kicked up, fire extinguishers, fridges, washing machines, lawnmowers and old cars all fall prey to our guns and yes it is fun to hear that long string of belt fed firing, but....that does not make it the only viable feeding system. I haven't had a line of infantry with fixed bayonets charge me yet at the range where I felt the need for uninterupted belt feed to save my life. Is it fun to hear and fire off 100 rds or more without stopping? Sure. But it is not the only way to fire rapidly.


You wrote...."Why not just take your Ruger and put a crank on it and strap it to a table... The dress up part does not do much for me."

Would you strap a Lewis, Gatling, Degteyarev, Bren, Browning 1919 or any other firearm for that matter to a table? By "strapping it to a table" you could not move the gun for elevation and windage. I do not understand the reasoning behind your statement. Regarding the dress up part that you said "does not do much for me". With my air cooled model it is simply esthetics. Why have a sports car when the 4 door economy model will roll down the road? Why not wear checkered pants with your pinstripe suit, they clothe you whether mismatched or not correct? Why put any aftermarket stock or add ons on your AR15 or any other firearm when the bullet will still go downrange the same? Esthetics is why. So much in firearms is esthetics. Why does one person prefer a maxim over a Browning or a Browning over a Maxim? Esthetics. Beauty in the eye of the beholder. If you would prefer to just add a crankfire device to your factory stocked ruger over having a ruger that looked like a real machine gun, then that is your preference, but I think many others would prefer the esthetics of it looking like a real machine gun. However, regarding my water cooled prototype, it is more than just "dress up" or esthetics with my water cooled ruger prototype. It is an extremely useful function of cooling. I find myself firing it a lot more than my air cooled model simply for the reason that it does not overheat like my air cooled does. I like them both and fire them both, but I prefer the water cooled.

In conclusion, if you could not previously "see" or understand the reasoning I have put forth above, I hope now you may pause to reconsider your preconceptions.
If you are one of the lucky people who has a full size 30 caliber or larger semi or full auto expensive to feed belt fed and have no desire for anything less, then accept my congratulation and a tip of my hat to you. Then most likely my designs would not be for you. However, if someone would like to have a nice metal, air or water cooled, stock replacement kit, that is a machine gun look alike, that fires rapidly with a crank or transferable full auto 10/22 and is extremely inexpensive to feed, then my designs might be for them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
you have made a belt feed mod for the 10-22?

i am not so interested in the magazine fed 10-22 conversions but a belt fed mod with little to know receiver modification on the 10-22 lets see what ya got.

i would buy that.


oh and where i thought that you went wrong with your other toy that well has been taken off the market.

think of your profit margin as a volume deal instead of per piece. you put enough of your product in as many hands as possible and it makes it a lot harder to change things after the fact. if nothing else a lot more costly for the ones who want the toys to go away.

the way i see it, if whatever it is costs 300 to make. in stead of selling it for 750, sell it for 450. you will get three times as many sales and will make the same amount of money. gun people are getting broke. economy is in the crapper. people can justify and or spend under 500 on stuff way faster than a grand.

r
I have completed DRAWINGS for the belt feed Rory, not a completed prototype. It is slowly being fabricated. I am sorry but as I stated in a previous post in this thread, I am not going to reveal its specifics here since I plan to patent it. I appreciate your other concerns and will keep them in mind along with regarding my production, mold, patent, advertising, packaging, operating manual and shipping costs. As well as considering that another AWB could obviate all my efforts and expenditures for which no one would reimburse me as no one has as yet reimbursed me for losses on a previous product of mine.

Anyone who buys more than one rifle and one handgun is engaging in buying luxury items and that is ok. Just as anyone who buys a ferrari or mercedes instead of an ecomony car. Just as anyone who buys a 30 caliber $30,000.00 full auto machine gun over the exact same semi auto version for $4000.00 None of these luxury items are need based such as electricity, gasoline, food, clothing and housing. These items sell at what the market will bear. That in the final analysis is what dictates the cost of a luxury item, what it costs to manufacture and what the market will bear. Sometimes the manufacturing costs are irrelevant and it is just what the market will bear. Do you really think the steel used in a ferrari or mercedes is any different than that used in the economy car? We exist in a capitalistic system, profit based. I am trying with my dress up prototype designs to help the average guy who cannot afford the expensive firearms and that is exactly the same thing I was trying to do with a previous product. I am one of those average guys myself. (I would appreciate it if you did not mention that previous product since I have been advised to not comment on it pending litigation.) Imagine for a moment the expenditure of time and resources of litigation to reclaim the rights for all citizens to have and use a product while some of those same citizens complained about the price of your previous product that they did not even purchase and tried to tell you what to charge for your prototype future products that are not need based and no one is forcing them to buy! You probably would tell them where to go and not even take the time to respond like I have. If the eventual price is not for someone, then it is the same as the person that the price of a ferrari, mercedes or cadillac is not for them. In that case they buy the economy car just as in the same situation a firearm enthusiast would buy a crank fire trigger attachment and a non water cooled, plastic mg42 stock and magazine feed it for their Ruger 10/22 and not buy my metal water or air cooled dress up stocks or belt feed. I would hope you would recognize that I have in the past and continue to try to invent things that are affordable to the average firearm enthusiast, but I am not responsible to provide those items to them at what costs they would like to spend or can afford.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Just remember us in CA we can not have a crank fire
Yes Dave, I have given consideration to the "no crank fire in Calif" problem.

That is why I have been playing around with a double set of standard triggers as an alternative for Minn and Calif residents. One trigger for each hand on each grip. You could put out a pretty rapid rate of fire by just functioning them rapidly using the trigger fingers of both hands. This could be done using a single ruger receiver or a double ruger receiver. These would be standard type triggers with no rapid fire connotation whatsoever. But there would be two of them. As far as I know these two states do not have a law against a standard double trigger firearm. However, you must realize that in order for me to manufacture something like this for just two states, that if the production costs exceed what my projected sales would be then I may not be able to offer it. However, I am looking into it and if it can be done financially then I will do it. I haven't forgotten about you Minn and Calif residents!
 

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bill you know very well that when IMBLITZVT said clip he meant magazine. so a good portion of your reply to him was unnecessary.

as to me, i can afford the toys in question and as to commenting on your last endeavor, it was a reference only. but i was helping understand why many of us who cold afford the so called luxury item chose not to. you are getting free market data here. we are your supposed customers.

as i have stated a few times in the past, your dress up kits are of no interest to me.

the belt fed 10/22... now that is an interesting idea.

r
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
bill you know very well that when IMBLITZVT said clip he meant magazine. so a good portion of your reply to him was unnecessary.

as to me, i can afford the toys in question and as to commenting on your last endeavor, it was a reference only. but i was helping understand why many of us who cold afford the so called luxury item chose not to. you are getting free market data here. we are your supposed customers.

as i have stated a few times in the past, your dress up kits are of no interest to me.

the belt fed 10/22... now that is an interesting idea.

r
Yes Rory I do know when IMBLITZVT said "clip" he meant magazine. That's just the point, I wanted him to know the difference. I wrote a long post for him explaining to him about magazine fed machine guns and how they are viable ammunition feeding devices. Only one sentence of my post for him concerned the explaination that a "clip" is not a magazine. That sentence was this...."(Although a "clip" is a mannlicher style ammunition holding device not synonomous with a magazine and most commonly found in Carcano and Garand rifles). "

Considering the time I took to write to him and the length of my post, one sentence can hardly be called "a good portion" of my reply. You and I both know it wasn't. But still a nice attempt on your part Rory to somehow find fault with me once again when there was none to find, as you have done previously in the past when I have posted here. This is further evidenced by your comment on the prices of my previous product when that was not what this threads subject was about and also as evidenced by your trying to tell me what my "mistakes" were previously. No Rory, I am not getting free market data from you. What I am getting from you is uncalled for criticism concerning prices of a previous product that has no business in this thread and a hard time just like every other time I post here. This is not an isolated instance. I did not ask you for your opinion of my business marketing. So you are giving me nothing for free but a hard time and uncalled for criticism that I have had from you in the past. You are not my susposed customer since you have made that very clear in this thread and in posts from the past. You are also not in business with me. You have no idea of what my previous product costs were and what my future product costs may be. I posted this thread and said I thought people might enjoy the video. That's it Rory. I did not solicit your services as my business manager. If you like the video and the prototypes, fine, say so. If you don't like it, fine, say so. But don't presume to tell me what I should charge or what my past mistakes were. My previous product was selling just fine at the listed prices. That was not the problem that stopped their sales. It would have just killed you to say something nice wouldn't it?
 

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you are so freaking ego driven you are missing the part where i am saying that i AM interested in one of your products. both of my posts have contained the same language. i am interested in the belt fed 10/22 idea. and could/would be a customer for such a product, that is if you could remove your head from your rear end. and look past any criticism. to which you obviously can not. generally your posts here have been of the same nature. "look at this dress up kit i am making. it is the greatest thing ever. i may actually have invented the bread slicer" to a reply of " well it is ok and you really are not that innovative, what about this product and that product and this other thing. i like features from all of these a little better than what you have in your prototype" your response is generally a long winded version trying to point out the differences between your prototype and whatever the person was saying that they liked about the other products. most people especially those that are just in 'prototype' phase woudl read these comments and thoughts and think a little harder about their product instead of still pumping the same crap out of the original idea. if you are posting here so people will stroke your ego, its just not going to happen. if you want real criticism of your "prototype" you will get that here. we are firearm fans with a wide array of interests and backgrounds that happen to spend a ton of money on our hobby. if this isn't a great test market i don't know what is.

it would be of your benefit to focus on the positive remarks made and pay attention to those that are negative.

rory
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Let me make this very clear Rory. I do not want you as a customer. I do not solicit your advice or opinion of my past or future product prices, I do not ask for your opinions of any of my future business marketing stategies or what you think my past "mistakes" might have been. I am not the one who is so "ego driven" that he has to unsolicitedly stick his nose into someone else's business and attempt to tell him how to run that business when all that person did was to post a video he thought people would enjoy. Now who needs to get their head out of their ass? I can go on with this as long as you like but it is not productive. You have acheived your goal Rory. You have ruined this thread with your arrogant unsolicited trying to tell me how to run my business. I did not ask for your business advice or criticism. "Nice video Bill" would have just killed you wouldn't it? Jerk.
 

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jerk huh? ruining your thread was not my intent or purpose.
speaking highly of a product that sounded interesting to me... that is what i did. giving an opinion of another product.. well what the hell do you expect? you post something up in a public forum and you just want or expect only praise? get over yourself. you can be quite certain that even if you gave the crap away now i would not be a customer.

and seeing as how this is not a for sale thread and i have been quite on topic i am pretty sure that this falls well within the forum guidelines.

rory
 
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