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Let’s talk 20mm

1691 Views 34 Replies 19 Participants Last post by  Cal.BAR
So I have done a few write ups on various DD subjects posted to the NFA guns Facebook. Just answering some of the common questions I get and having a conversation. I will cross post over here for the non Facebook people


Let’s talk 20mm. I get a lot of questions regarding various 20mm guns so I am just go to pass on a little knowledge I have accumulated over the years. I consider myself reasonably knowledgeable on the subject but always learning. Yes I do have a few biasses.

The Lahti: Lahti’s are probably the most common and in my opinion undervalued. Chambered in 20x139. They are a fun, simple gun. They are pretty rugged but not super high quality. Kind of like a big sten. They are pretty hard on brass. Case mouth gets beat up on extraction. Recoil is very manageable. When my daughter was 15 she put 15-20 rounds down range in semi auto mode with no issue. Barrel is pretty much fixed so it is kind of difficult to move around. If you found one with a demilled barrel they can be chambered in the 20mm lahti/Vulcan. Basically the lahti/vulcan is a 20mm Vulcan that has had the rim machined to match the the 20mm lahti so no modifications to the bolt face. This will also insure you do not load a 20mm Vulcan in to the lahti as the Vulcan is higher pressure than the lahti. Mag capacity is reduced to 7.

Solothurn: the solo is the nicest of the 20mm guns. Also chambered in the lahti 20x139. It is a beautiful machined gun with almost every piece on the gun serial numbered to the gun. It is as nice as the best of the Swiss made guns. Typically solothurns will cost twice as much as a lahti. They break down so they can easily be moved in a car and easier to store. Because every part of the gun is actually serial numbered and fit to the gun spare parts are way more difficult. It is a pleasure to shoot.

Hispano: full auto 20mm chambered in 20x110. Closed bolt auto cannon. They are primarily an aircraft gun so if you want to shoot it off the ground you pretty much build a ******* mount and fire control. There are like 20 different variants with some parts being interchangeable but not all. Makes it a pain in the ass when you find a pile of parts and have no idea what varient they go to. There are post samples and transferables floating around. Ammo is tricky. Cases are available but typically require a lot of work. I hate autocannons.

Oerlikon: another full auto 20mm. Fires the 20x110 Oerlikon. Slightly different than the Hispano case. Advanced primer ignition gun. Like a big Mac. They are super hard on cases and typically blow the mouth out after firing. Oerlikons are a naval gun and typically mount and cradle is harder to find than the gun. Cases are difficult because they are damaged after firing. There are transferable and post sample examples. I hate autocannons

Carl Gustav 20mm recoilless: if it was safe this one would be the coolest. The precessor to the recoilless guns and bazooka. There are a handful of guns and live ammunition unfortunately the ammunition is 80 plus years old and there is no room for error. Powder breaking down could be a major problem. Light weight gun. Huge case. Fantastic back blast. Extremely difficult to reload the ammunition and internals have a life span. As you shoot the gun and wear the internals the gun begins to recoil forward. Guess that is opposite of recoil. Maybe we call it coil

Anzio Ironworks: bolt action 20x103 Vulcan The most modern on the list. Simple bolt gun. Barrel unscrews so it is easy to move and store. Fires the easy to find vulcan round. Don’t believe they are being made anymore with less than 100 made. If you brake a part a new piece can probably be machined without loss of value on the gun. Also can be suppressed but who buys a cannon to make it quieter?

Riker 20mm: Mike Riker build a handful of 20mm guns based off a large pressure test receiver. Simple falling block design with spring recoil system mounted on the soklov wheeled mount. Has a lanyard slap
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trigger. Looks like a small cannon. The most cost effective way to get in to 20mm world. Easy to shoot fun for all ages

Vulcan/m39/mg151/mk12/etc. not going to get in to these unless someone has real questions

Ammo: remember you will be spending real money on dies and a new press. Vulcan dies are the easiest to find. There is pretty much one person that makes all the big dies. Sometimes it takes months to get them. Remember most of the cases are berdan primed and will have to be converted to boxer primed. 20mm Primers are currently a problem. Not a lot available. 50 primers can be used but require a 50 primer pocket and usually
A black powder booster to light a full load of powder. Vulcan projectiles are pretty common and need to be slightly modified to work in the lahti. Also note they are not all that accurate. Military standard us 3moa. Not a high ballistic coefficient either. Designed to put high explosives over a large area.

Vulcan cases are pretty common costing between $2-6 a piece. Hispano $5-10. Oerlikon 3-10, Carl G 25-50. Thé 20x139 brass is $20ish. There is some new machined steel and brass cases that are nice but have a limited life compared to drawn brass cases.

Live ammo can be found for all of the above. The Vulcan is electric primed and bullets have one hell of a crimp. You pretty much end up cutting the live rounds apart to get the projectile off and maybe salvaging the powder. In my opinion they are only worth the value of the projectile. 20mm lahti run between 40-70 each depending on who’s selling. Most are AP. Live Hispano and Oerlikon 15-30. Recoilless 100-150.

Hope this book explains a few things. I am sure i am forgetting a few things but this is a good start.
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The Solo and Lahti are actually 20mm x 138B with the B meaning belted case. There is a 20mm X 139 and it was used in the M39 gun commonly mounted on the M113 in vietnam. It is a rimless case and I think it was a German designed round. Otherwise you got it pretty well nailed.

Frank
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Great post @Dangerous Bob !! It's always a pleasure to see what you decide to bring to the Big Sandy shoots: big guns that make big booms!

They call you Dangerous Bob for a reason. :cool:
...ditto on the kudo's. Have an M127(?) barrel being mounted to my Lahti for the rimless 20MM round. I've had it DD'd but have not had occasion to complete it...yet.

Excellent article and good information.
Interesting read I have one of the Anzio 20s and have had great luck with it. Had not heard of no more being made. It’s a niche gun for sure. Built a cradle mount for mine was tired of eating dirt!
Interesting read I have one of the Anzio 20s and have had great luck with it. Had not heard of no more being made. It’s a niche gun for sure. Built a cradle mount for mine was tired of eating dirt!
Pics?
Concur with posts above: Great compilation on the various 20mm rounds available. Thanks for posting such an informative summary.
Not to Nit-Pick, Biffj, but the M139, chambered in the 20 X 139 and basically a Hispano-Suiza HS.820 was NOT mounted on the M113 APC, but on the smaller and much less successful M114 CRV (Command and Reconnaissance Vehicle). As a comparison, the M113 was very successful, with 80K produced and was used for many years by many countries, in addition to its long service in the US. In contrast, the M114 had only about 600 produced (according to on-line sources), was only used by the US Army and was "retired" by 1973. The M114A2 version with the 1 X M139 armament was introduced in 1969 and thus had a short service life. I did once encounter one as a target on a non-scored strafing range in the mid '70s.
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I am definitely not sure of the vehicle mount and it could indeed have been an M114 though I have seen pictures of a 113 with one of the M139s mounted. In any case the cartridge is the 20X139 and its a pretty hot round. I've not seen any civvie guns that fire it but that means little.
Frank
Twin60,

that looks like and awfully short barrel. Is that a 20mm?
Nice mount. Did you happen to make 2 or 3 more. I know a couple a guys that would want one
Twin60,

that looks like and awfully short barrel. Is that a 20mm?
Yes 20mm it’s just the angle it’s taken from,this pic puts it in perspective. That is the old muzzle brake before it was blown to pieces. Vid on YouTube 20mm muzzle brake failure. Bad welds on original brake were found out on 600 gr loads hence the milled brake on later pic. 14.5 conversion at lower end
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Yes 20mm it’s just the angle it’s taken from,this pic puts it in perspective. That is the old muzzle brake before it was blown to pieces. Vid on YouTube 20mm muzzle brake failure. Bad welds on original brake were found out on 600 gr loads hence the milled brake on later pic. 14.5 conversion at lower end View attachment 129255
Yes 20mm it’s just the angle it’s taken from,this pic puts it in perspective. That is the old muzzle brake before it was blown to pieces. Vid on YouTube 20mm muzzle brake failure. Bad welds on original brake were found out on 600 gr loads hence the milled brake on later pic. 14.5 conversion at lower end View attachment 129255
when you want real fun you go 25mm

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Wait, Wut? When I had a long talk w/ Mike @ Anzio he talked about how he had plans to go 25 & 30 but it never made it that far. That looks like one of his receivers. It is 'just' a caliber conversion (and took the different bolt thrust into account) or is it a one-off bigger model? 25 Bushmaster? Looks like the barrel and brake from one.
It is a conversion I built using a modified 20 Vulcan case. No modification to the bolt and it still feeds from the mag. Was able to push the APDS rounds to 3575 fps

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It is a conversion I built using a modified 20 Vulcan case. No modification to the bolt and it still feeds from the mag. Was able to push the APDS rounds to 3575 fps

View attachment 129281
Holy sh!t Bob! That is awesome.

Reminds me of a larger version of the Barrett xm109 (which would be awesome scaled up a little to 25mm). Love the xm109 and Barrett has even said it's not a dead project, as all the lowers they sell are machined extra to still be compatible with the xm109 uppers.
Since its subcaliber, wouldn't you be able to shoot the APDS rounds at the same velocity out of an unmodified 20 (w/ the appropriate sized sabot.) Amount of powder is basically the same?

Edit: Oh wait, the area of the sabot is larger on the 25 so the same pressure would accelerate it faster. Will have to play with some numbers in QuickLoad to see the difference. Cool.
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