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Hey Everyone, I hope you have all been having a good spring. One of the best parts of mine has been getting my T-Gewehr back. I bought a bolt at auction and a bolt-less T-gewehr separately. When I received the T-Gewehr, it appeared someone had unscrewed the barrel a bit. Well... thanks to a forum member's excellent work, I just got it back with the barrel fixed. Now its time to make ammo!

Right now, I reload 45ACP and 45Colt on a Dillions 550B. So 13mm being basically the same as 50 BMG is going to be a new world for me. I have received some good advice from a few guys but figured I would put it out to everyone before I dive in head first! If anyone wants in, please email me at [email protected] as I think I will have several people diving in with me on this one.

IMG_20200518_153546_1.jpg



Ok, first thing is brass. I think I obviously need to get this made with 50BMG primer pockets. My plan was to copy the original spec as close as possible. RCC Brass has given me what I think is a good price of just over $10 a piece of brass with a low min order: Home - RCC Brass / Roberson Cartridge Company | Amarillo, Texas So I think I am good to go there.... unless someone has a great idea or a reason not to use RCC.

Second is the bullet. Cutting Edge bullets can do it for about $3.50-$4 a round with a costly engineering fee and a decent min order. I am sure their final product will more than exceed my needs for a surplus bullet. Frankly I don't even want match grade as I wish to replicate the original performance as much as possible. So this might be overkill. While overkill is fine and will work, it would be nice if I could save a bit on the bullet. Any suggestions for anyone else I who might be willing to make me bullets? I assume they will be solid copper, not AP. Solid Copper Brass Lead Free Bullets

Following that, I need loading equipment and this is really getting into an area I don't know. I have never done a necked round before! I have heard good things about RCBS and they seem to have something that will work in the Ammomaster-2: Buy Ammomaster -2 Single Stage Press And More | RCBS Any thoughts on this? Better suggestions?
For everything else I think CH4D seems to be the obvious choice. They offer this caliber. Since the brass is already formed, I think I will only need the full length sizer and seater but I am not sure if this includes the piece that holds the primer when you go to install it. I figure I might as well do a File Trim as I don't have any other system currently. Also a Shell Holder. Environment Test I think thats all I need but am I missing anything???

Finally I need to figure out a powder... Here is where I need the most help. I want to pick something right for this cartridge but also something that I can easily get on the market. What does everyone suggest and how do I go about figuring out a load?

Thanks for any help guys! I will be sure to post some video of when I get it shooting! Now I am no Mike Duke, so I will not have this ready later this week... Its going to take me some time like the rest of you! :)

Anyone notice both guns in the picture above? Its like a whale with smaller fish hanging around its mouth. I just bought this little 1880's Iver Johnson Eclipse Derringer from my cousin. It was on my uncles wall for years. A "woman of the night" gun as my father put it. 22 Short and is pretty fun gun!
 

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BeltFed GURU
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For powder you will want to use 20 mm propellant like WC 872 or slower ,any standard 50 cal powder is going to be too fast for the old girl !!
 

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The ammo master is a good press and ideal for what you're wanting to do. You will need a shell holder for the case that will fit the press too. For the larger shell holders you will need a threaded setup. The 50 cal units screw into the ram where the shell holders for little stuff like the 338 lapua mag fit into an adapter that attaches to the ram with 2 screws. I think the thread in the ram is 7/8-14. Its the same as the tiny dies that everyone uses to load little stuff. I'll check on that. I had to adapt my hollywood 20X138B shell holder to fit my Ammomaster press....
I think CH4D will make the shell holder if they don't offer one already. You might want to get that and the dies ordered up soon. If its not in stock it might be a goodly wait. I've also heard that the owner is considering getting out of the business. Get it done while you can. None of the other die makers are as easy to deal with as Dave at CH4D on oddball stuff.

The dies will no doubt be the 1.5" diameter and the ammomaster press has a bushing that can be removed so it will accept that size die. Very important to note that. The other possible presses sometimes have other oddball sizes like the 1.25" on the rock chuckers. Having the bushing for the 7/8" dies is a good too because you can use your shell holder up top and the optional priming setup to prime your cases. It involves screwing the adapter to the ram and using the priming ram to seat the primers into the cases held on the top of the press with the shell holder. This is an excellent way to prime the larger stuff.

I vote for brass bullets done at any CNC or Swiss turn shop. Screw the bullet makers. Copper is neat but not what you're really looking for. Brass will be less money, easier to deal with both from manufacturing and use perspectives and isn't armor piercing. Make up your Autocad drawing and show it around to some machineshops. Send me a copy and I'll ask the shop I'm at for a quote too.

Gun looks much better sitting on the bipod in the stock. Nice pic.

Frank
 

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For powder you will want to use 20 mm propellant like WC 872 or slower ,any standard 50 cal powder is going to be too fast for the old girl !!
We did a bit of loading for the 13mm many years ago. We used surplus 5010, (which for the record burns at least 3 steps SLOWER than WC-872). I don't remember the charges but they were no concerns as far as pressure goes. We turned the projectiles out of reclaimed .55 Boyes AP projectiles. Fun gun, though exspensive to set up to load for. Some of these were re-barreled to .50 BMG so any reasonable load should be OK Regards, JH
 

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BeltFed GURU
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haakster,
would this be the burn chart to which you refer https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/BurnRates.pdf
Notice it says H-5010 not IMR 5010 ......Hodgen bought out IMR in 2004 and reformulated it in a canister grade powder not the mil spec bulk lot powder that IMR 5010 was .....Canister VS Bulk not the same creature .....Hell a Hot bulk lot of it slipped through sold by High Tec and they bought every grain back !! It was spiking dangerously high (fast ) !!
I remember the Pzb 39 Mauser 1918 T-Gewehr actions converted to 50 BMG and the Boyes .55`s back in the mid 80`s
40 years of Rifle 50 BMG experience for Accuracy ....... Now the VV 20n29 it was well liked but very temperature sensitive ( guys were heating to 110-120* for the best consistency and getting it Until an un-named person overheated and blew his heater 3 shells ☠ .....) it is no longer available now the Vectren not tried it .
Burn charts are "Relative" in nature, case geometry dictates true burn velocity ballistic thermodynamics 101 .


IMBLITZYT
It was originally loaded with cordite i believe , the 795 Gr. slug is very close to current Brass Monolithic solids being shot in matches in weight and .4mm, .015" larger dia. ,the cartridge is 92 mm as opposed to 99 mm for BMG . The shoulder is a longer and shallower taper . Any 50 powder used cautiously will work .....The bullet well how much you going to shoot it ?
At the price of $3-4 ea . and i would not suggest a full bearing surface Brass slug but a modern Bore Rider design Or the press you want is a Corbin and the dies to make copper jacket lead "soft " slugs i think Corbin CSP-2 Mega-Mite Press total set up about 2500 or just at 4 for the slugs 625 rounds cover the equipment and time of course ....Reload and make slugs too ,something to think about ........
 

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We tried to run IMR 5010 in the 20mm back a few years....like 20 years and had notthing but trouble It is way too fast for the 20mm. On the other hand the WC872 was much slower burning and gave us no problems. Higher velocity with the 872 and no expanded primer pockets. The 5010 did seem to vary from lot to lot and sometimes by a lot. As it is the powder isn't available any more so its not worth considering. I did run a lot of it in my 338 lapua though. Very accurate and consistent. Its just a pain to meter. I've run the WC872 in the 338 as well but its not as consistent. It is safe though. So are all the other 20mm powders which we use in the 50 like WC 868, WC870, WX 860....Powder won't be a problem. Bullets shouldn't be either. Not sure about bore riders but grooved or waisted bullets to reduce bore contact area might be a good idea. Keeps the pressure down a bit. The mauser may handle the pressure just fine too. I have no idea what the original cartridge pressure was like or what the receiver and bolt are made from.

Frank

Major Boys rolls over in his grave and kicks a puppy every time someone puts an E on his name......saw that on another site.
 

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My ex
We tried to run IMR 5010 in the 20mm back a few years....like 20 years and had notthing but trouble It is way too fast for the 20mm. On the other hand the WC872 was much slower burning and gave us no problems. Higher velocity with the 872 and no expanded primer pockets. The 5010 did seem to vary from lot to lot and sometimes by a lot. As it is the powder isn't available any more so its not worth considering. I did run a lot of it in my 338 lapua though. Very accurate and consistent. Its just a pain to meter. I've run the WC872 in the 338 as well but its not as consistent. It is safe though. So are all the other 20mm powders which we use in the 50 like WC 868, WC870, WX 860....Powder won't be a problem. Bullets shouldn't be either. Not sure about bore riders but grooved or waisted bullets to reduce bore contact area might be a good idea. Keeps the pressure down a bit. The mauser may handle the pressure just fine too. I have no idea what the original cartridge pressure was like or what the receiver and bolt are made from.

Frank

Major Boys rolls over in his grave and kicks a puppy every time someone puts an E on his name......saw that on another site.
haakster,
would this be the burn chart to which you refer https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/BurnRates.pdf
Notice it says H-5010 not IMR 5010 ......Hodgen bought out IMR in 2004 and reformulated it in a canister grade powder not the mil spec bulk lot powder that IMR 5010 was .....Canister VS Bulk not the same creature .....Hell a Hot bulk lot of it slipped through sold by High Tec and they bought every grain back !! It was spiking dangerously high (fast ) !!
I remember the Pzb 39 Mauser 1918 T-Gewehr actions converted to 50 BMG and the Boyes .55`s back in the mid 80`s
40 years of Rifle 50 BMG experience for Accuracy ....... Now the VV 20n29 it was well liked but very temperature sensitive ( guys were heating to 110-120* for the best consistency and getting it Until an un-named person overheated and blew his heater 3 shells ☠ .....) it is no longer available now the Vectren not tried it .
Burn charts are "Relative" in nature, case geometry dictates true burn velocity ballistic thermodynamics 101 .


IMBLITZYT
It was originally loaded with cordite i believe , the 795 Gr. slug is very close to current Brass Monolithic solids being shot in matches in weight and .4mm, .015" larger dia. ,the cartridge is 92 mm as opposed to 99 mm for BMG . The shoulder is a longer and shallower taper . Any 50 powder used cautiously will work .....The bullet well how much you going to shoot it ?
At the price of $3-4 ea . and i would not suggest a full bearing surface Brass slug but a modern Bore Rider design Or the press you want is a Corbin and the dies to make copper jacket lead "soft " slugs i think Corbin CSP-2 Mega-Mite Press total set up about 2500 or just at 4 for the slugs 625 rounds cover the equipment and time of course ....Reload and make slugs too ,something to think about ........
The powder we used way back when was Hodgdon 5010 in the OLD metal cans with the paper labels. I just assumed it was surplus. I have owned the .55 Boys (Mk1), S18-1000, and other similar weapons but at that time we shot surplus..along time ago. Bob Faris used a Mauser 13mm re-chambered in .50 BMG for load testing at Aberdeen and they were used well into the early 1970's for HV salvo (.50 BMG) testing as well I believe. The only .50 BMG conversions I have ever shot were the Boys & the Lahti,I never seen a .50 conversion of the Mauser 13mm rifle though. Regards, JH
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Guys, sorry for the slow reply, I was trying to research a bit but got really busy.

For powder you will want to use 20 mm propellant like WC 872 or slower ,any standard 50 cal powder is going to be too fast for the old girl !!
That seems to be the consensus, a slow burning powder. WC872 seems to be a surplus powder? Where do you guys buy it?

The ammo master is a good press and ideal for what you're wanting to do. You will need a shell holder for the case that will fit the press too. For the larger shell holders you will need a threaded setup. The 50 cal units screw into the ram where the shell holders for little stuff like the 338 lapua mag fit into an adapter that attaches to the ram with 2 screws. I think the thread in the ram is 7/8-14. Its the same as the tiny dies that everyone uses to load little stuff. I'll check on that. I had to adapt my hollywood 20X138B shell holder to fit my Ammomaster press....
I think CH4D will make the shell holder if they don't offer one already. You might want to get that and the dies ordered up soon. If its not in stock it might be a goodly wait. I've also heard that the owner is considering getting out of the business. Get it done while you can. None of the other die makers are as easy to deal with as Dave at CH4D on oddball stuff.

The dies will no doubt be the 1.5" diameter and the ammomaster press has a bushing that can be removed so it will accept that size die. Very important to note that. The other possible presses sometimes have other oddball sizes like the 1.25" on the rock chuckers. Having the bushing for the 7/8" dies is a good too because you can use your shell holder up top and the optional priming setup to prime your cases. It involves screwing the adapter to the ram and using the priming ram to seat the primers into the cases held on the top of the press with the shell holder. This is an excellent way to prime the larger stuff.
Sounds good and I am going to try and get all this done shortly.


I vote for brass bullets done at any CNC or Swiss turn shop. Screw the bullet makers. Copper is neat but not what you're really looking for. Brass will be less money, easier to deal with both from manufacturing and use perspectives and isn't armor piercing. Make up your Autocad drawing and show it around to some machineshops. Send me a copy and I'll ask the shop I'm at for a quote too.

Gun looks much better sitting on the bipod in the stock. Nice pic.

Frank
While I think I will take your idea in general, I am not so hot on the brass over copper. I would really like to keep the same look. I am sure some will wish to have Dummy rounds and the copper will look more correct too. If its not a huge difference in price, which I was told it was not that much, I would just stick with copper. That said its probably easy to look at both options at once and see how much the savings is.

I have started laying everything out in CAD:
Capture.JPG


The dimensions on the original drawings is not extensive. I only have a 1934 drawing to go from. There is also a drawing out there in Imperial units that looks to be close but probably reversed engineered from a live round. I will ask around a bit and see if I can get a better drawings. I have one round here to take dimensions from too... I am working on this part now.

I like your idea of getting some quotes but I don't know many machine shops. The one I use from time to time will not do gun stuff... unless they don't know its gun stuff and clearly they will figure this one out... :) When I am done I will send it to you.

Yes, its great to have it back together, Thanks very much for the great work on the barrel Frank!

We did a bit of loading for the 13mm many years ago. We used surplus 5010, (which for the record burns at least 3 steps SLOWER than WC-872). I don't remember the charges but they were no concerns as far as pressure goes. We turned the projectiles out of reclaimed .55 Boyes AP projectiles. Fun gun, though exspensive to set up to load for. Some of these were re-barreled to .50 BMG so any reasonable load should be OK Regards, JH
Yes, I will have to do a big more research on the powder as you said the 5010 is gone. I had not thought the powder would be as hard to find.

..... it is no longer available now the Vectren not tried it .....
IMBLITZYT
It was originally loaded with cordite i believe , the 795 Gr. slug is very close to current Brass Monolithic solids being shot in matches in weight and .4mm, .015" larger dia. ,the cartridge is 92 mm as opposed to 99 mm for BMG . The shoulder is a longer and shallower taper . Any 50 powder used cautiously will work .....The bullet well how much you going to shoot it ?
At the price of $3-4 ea . and i would not suggest a full bearing surface Brass slug but a modern Bore Rider design Or the press you want is a Corbin and the dies to make copper jacket lead "soft " slugs i think Corbin CSP-2 Mega-Mite Press total set up about 2500 or just at 4 for the slugs 625 rounds cover the equipment and time of course ....Reload and make slugs too ,something to think about ........
I don't frankly know how much I will shoot it. My guess is a few times a year but a bit more at first. I am not going to be blowing through ammo but I am also sure a bunch of people in my club will want a shot.

I would rather keep to the original as much as possible as far as the bore rider goes. I mean I will if I have to but I would rather keep to MilSpec as much as possible.

$2500 for the press was a bit more than I was looking to spend. Does it really offer an advantage over the $500 press above? I don't know I will ever shoot 625 rounds and I don't own another above 30 caliber gun... yet....

.... I've run the WC872 in the 338 as well but its not as consistent. It is safe though. So are all the other 20mm powders which we use in the 50 like WC 868, WC870, WX 860....Powder won't be a problem. Bullets shouldn't be either. Not sure about bore riders but grooved or waisted bullets to reduce bore contact area might be a good idea. Keeps the pressure down a bit. The mauser may handle the pressure just fine too. I have no idea what the original cartridge pressure was like or what the receiver and bolt are made from....
Ok, I will have to look to see if I can find some of the powders you have listed above.

Yes I saw the one article with using modified bullet designs to try and reduce bore contact. Frankly, I would rather keep it as simple as possible and try and replicate everything as close to original as possible.

I know the muzzle velocity is suppose to be 785 m/sec which is about 2575ft/sec. I am wondering... if the bullet is about identical to an original in weight and dimensions and external material (giving same fictional effect)... I could not be very far off from design chamber pressure... can I? I don't feel like the Germans were cutting into the safety factors on this gun... so I think as long as I don't do something to stupid, I should be ok if I try to replicate everything and go slow on figuring out a charge....???

.... Bob Faris used a Mauser 13mm re-chambered in .50 BMG for load testing at Aberdeen and they were used well into the early 1970's for HV salvo (.50 BMG) testing as well I believe. The only .50 BMG conversions I have ever shot were the Boys & the Lahti,I never seen a .50 conversion of the Mauser 13mm rifle though. Regards, JH
Aberdeen! Thats only a hour north for me! I wish they had no moved the ordnance department and espically the museum. The only piece of the Government I want around here and they move it!

I have seen 50BMG conversions... not a horrible idea but I would rather stick with the 13mm for my gun. So I did not look to far down that road.
 
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