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Looks to make a run of 13mm Cartridges for the T-Gewehr, need some advice!

5K views 24 replies 7 participants last post by  Rescuerandy2 
#1 ·
Hey Everyone, I hope you have all been having a good spring. One of the best parts of mine has been getting my T-Gewehr back. I bought a bolt at auction and a bolt-less T-gewehr separately. When I received the T-Gewehr, it appeared someone had unscrewed the barrel a bit. Well... thanks to a forum member's excellent work, I just got it back with the barrel fixed. Now its time to make ammo!

Right now, I reload 45ACP and 45Colt on a Dillions 550B. So 13mm being basically the same as 50 BMG is going to be a new world for me. I have received some good advice from a few guys but figured I would put it out to everyone before I dive in head first! If anyone wants in, please email me at phiteshe@vt.edu as I think I will have several people diving in with me on this one.

Gun Rifle Firearm Air gun Trigger



Ok, first thing is brass. I think I obviously need to get this made with 50BMG primer pockets. My plan was to copy the original spec as close as possible. RCC Brass has given me what I think is a good price of just over $10 a piece of brass with a low min order: Home - RCC Brass / Roberson Cartridge Company | Amarillo, Texas So I think I am good to go there.... unless someone has a great idea or a reason not to use RCC.

Second is the bullet. Cutting Edge bullets can do it for about $3.50-$4 a round with a costly engineering fee and a decent min order. I am sure their final product will more than exceed my needs for a surplus bullet. Frankly I don't even want match grade as I wish to replicate the original performance as much as possible. So this might be overkill. While overkill is fine and will work, it would be nice if I could save a bit on the bullet. Any suggestions for anyone else I who might be willing to make me bullets? I assume they will be solid copper, not AP. Solid Copper Brass Lead Free Bullets

Following that, I need loading equipment and this is really getting into an area I don't know. I have never done a necked round before! I have heard good things about RCBS and they seem to have something that will work in the Ammomaster-2: Buy Ammomaster -2 Single Stage Press And More | RCBS Any thoughts on this? Better suggestions?
For everything else I think CH4D seems to be the obvious choice. They offer this caliber. Since the brass is already formed, I think I will only need the full length sizer and seater but I am not sure if this includes the piece that holds the primer when you go to install it. I figure I might as well do a File Trim as I don't have any other system currently. Also a Shell Holder. Environment Test I think thats all I need but am I missing anything???

Finally I need to figure out a powder... Here is where I need the most help. I want to pick something right for this cartridge but also something that I can easily get on the market. What does everyone suggest and how do I go about figuring out a load?

Thanks for any help guys! I will be sure to post some video of when I get it shooting! Now I am no Mike Duke, so I will not have this ready later this week... Its going to take me some time like the rest of you! :)

Anyone notice both guns in the picture above? Its like a whale with smaller fish hanging around its mouth. I just bought this little 1880's Iver Johnson Eclipse Derringer from my cousin. It was on my uncles wall for years. A "woman of the night" gun as my father put it. 22 Short and is pretty fun gun!
 
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#4 ·
We did a bit of loading for the 13mm many years ago. We used surplus 5010, (which for the record burns at least 3 steps SLOWER than WC-872). I don't remember the charges but they were no concerns as far as pressure goes. We turned the projectiles out of reclaimed .55 Boyes AP projectiles. Fun gun, though exspensive to set up to load for. Some of these were re-barreled to .50 BMG so any reasonable load should be OK Regards, JH
 
#3 ·
The ammo master is a good press and ideal for what you're wanting to do. You will need a shell holder for the case that will fit the press too. For the larger shell holders you will need a threaded setup. The 50 cal units screw into the ram where the shell holders for little stuff like the 338 lapua mag fit into an adapter that attaches to the ram with 2 screws. I think the thread in the ram is 7/8-14. Its the same as the tiny dies that everyone uses to load little stuff. I'll check on that. I had to adapt my hollywood 20X138B shell holder to fit my Ammomaster press....
I think CH4D will make the shell holder if they don't offer one already. You might want to get that and the dies ordered up soon. If its not in stock it might be a goodly wait. I've also heard that the owner is considering getting out of the business. Get it done while you can. None of the other die makers are as easy to deal with as Dave at CH4D on oddball stuff.

The dies will no doubt be the 1.5" diameter and the ammomaster press has a bushing that can be removed so it will accept that size die. Very important to note that. The other possible presses sometimes have other oddball sizes like the 1.25" on the rock chuckers. Having the bushing for the 7/8" dies is a good too because you can use your shell holder up top and the optional priming setup to prime your cases. It involves screwing the adapter to the ram and using the priming ram to seat the primers into the cases held on the top of the press with the shell holder. This is an excellent way to prime the larger stuff.

I vote for brass bullets done at any CNC or Swiss turn shop. Screw the bullet makers. Copper is neat but not what you're really looking for. Brass will be less money, easier to deal with both from manufacturing and use perspectives and isn't armor piercing. Make up your Autocad drawing and show it around to some machineshops. Send me a copy and I'll ask the shop I'm at for a quote too.

Gun looks much better sitting on the bipod in the stock. Nice pic.

Frank
 
#5 ·
haakster,
would this be the burn chart to which you refer https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/BurnRates.pdf
Notice it says H-5010 not IMR 5010 ......Hodgen bought out IMR in 2004 and reformulated it in a canister grade powder not the mil spec bulk lot powder that IMR 5010 was .....Canister VS Bulk not the same creature .....Hell a Hot bulk lot of it slipped through sold by High Tec and they bought every grain back !! It was spiking dangerously high (fast ) !!
I remember the Pzb 39 Mauser 1918 T-Gewehr actions converted to 50 BMG and the Boyes .55`s back in the mid 80`s
40 years of Rifle 50 BMG experience for Accuracy ....... Now the VV 20n29 it was well liked but very temperature sensitive ( guys were heating to 110-120* for the best consistency and getting it Until an un-named person overheated and blew his heater 3 shells ☠ .....) it is no longer available now the Vectren not tried it .
Burn charts are "Relative" in nature, case geometry dictates true burn velocity ballistic thermodynamics 101 .


IMBLITZYT
It was originally loaded with cordite i believe , the 795 Gr. slug is very close to current Brass Monolithic solids being shot in matches in weight and .4mm, .015" larger dia. ,the cartridge is 92 mm as opposed to 99 mm for BMG . The shoulder is a longer and shallower taper . Any 50 powder used cautiously will work .....The bullet well how much you going to shoot it ?
At the price of $3-4 ea . and i would not suggest a full bearing surface Brass slug but a modern Bore Rider design Or the press you want is a Corbin and the dies to make copper jacket lead "soft " slugs i think Corbin CSP-2 Mega-Mite Press total set up about 2500 or just at 4 for the slugs 625 rounds cover the equipment and time of course ....Reload and make slugs too ,something to think about ........
 
#6 ·
We tried to run IMR 5010 in the 20mm back a few years....like 20 years and had notthing but trouble It is way too fast for the 20mm. On the other hand the WC872 was much slower burning and gave us no problems. Higher velocity with the 872 and no expanded primer pockets. The 5010 did seem to vary from lot to lot and sometimes by a lot. As it is the powder isn't available any more so its not worth considering. I did run a lot of it in my 338 lapua though. Very accurate and consistent. Its just a pain to meter. I've run the WC872 in the 338 as well but its not as consistent. It is safe though. So are all the other 20mm powders which we use in the 50 like WC 868, WC870, WX 860....Powder won't be a problem. Bullets shouldn't be either. Not sure about bore riders but grooved or waisted bullets to reduce bore contact area might be a good idea. Keeps the pressure down a bit. The mauser may handle the pressure just fine too. I have no idea what the original cartridge pressure was like or what the receiver and bolt are made from.

Frank

Major Boys rolls over in his grave and kicks a puppy every time someone puts an E on his name......saw that on another site.
 
#7 ·
My ex
We tried to run IMR 5010 in the 20mm back a few years....like 20 years and had notthing but trouble It is way too fast for the 20mm. On the other hand the WC872 was much slower burning and gave us no problems. Higher velocity with the 872 and no expanded primer pockets. The 5010 did seem to vary from lot to lot and sometimes by a lot. As it is the powder isn't available any more so its not worth considering. I did run a lot of it in my 338 lapua though. Very accurate and consistent. Its just a pain to meter. I've run the WC872 in the 338 as well but its not as consistent. It is safe though. So are all the other 20mm powders which we use in the 50 like WC 868, WC870, WX 860....Powder won't be a problem. Bullets shouldn't be either. Not sure about bore riders but grooved or waisted bullets to reduce bore contact area might be a good idea. Keeps the pressure down a bit. The mauser may handle the pressure just fine too. I have no idea what the original cartridge pressure was like or what the receiver and bolt are made from.

Frank

Major Boys rolls over in his grave and kicks a puppy every time someone puts an E on his name......saw that on another site.
haakster,
would this be the burn chart to which you refer https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/BurnRates.pdf
Notice it says H-5010 not IMR 5010 ......Hodgen bought out IMR in 2004 and reformulated it in a canister grade powder not the mil spec bulk lot powder that IMR 5010 was .....Canister VS Bulk not the same creature .....Hell a Hot bulk lot of it slipped through sold by High Tec and they bought every grain back !! It was spiking dangerously high (fast ) !!
I remember the Pzb 39 Mauser 1918 T-Gewehr actions converted to 50 BMG and the Boyes .55`s back in the mid 80`s
40 years of Rifle 50 BMG experience for Accuracy ....... Now the VV 20n29 it was well liked but very temperature sensitive ( guys were heating to 110-120* for the best consistency and getting it Until an un-named person overheated and blew his heater 3 shells ☠ .....) it is no longer available now the Vectren not tried it .
Burn charts are "Relative" in nature, case geometry dictates true burn velocity ballistic thermodynamics 101 .


IMBLITZYT
It was originally loaded with cordite i believe , the 795 Gr. slug is very close to current Brass Monolithic solids being shot in matches in weight and .4mm, .015" larger dia. ,the cartridge is 92 mm as opposed to 99 mm for BMG . The shoulder is a longer and shallower taper . Any 50 powder used cautiously will work .....The bullet well how much you going to shoot it ?
At the price of $3-4 ea . and i would not suggest a full bearing surface Brass slug but a modern Bore Rider design Or the press you want is a Corbin and the dies to make copper jacket lead "soft " slugs i think Corbin CSP-2 Mega-Mite Press total set up about 2500 or just at 4 for the slugs 625 rounds cover the equipment and time of course ....Reload and make slugs too ,something to think about ........
The powder we used way back when was Hodgdon 5010 in the OLD metal cans with the paper labels. I just assumed it was surplus. I have owned the .55 Boys (Mk1), S18-1000, and other similar weapons but at that time we shot surplus..along time ago. Bob Faris used a Mauser 13mm re-chambered in .50 BMG for load testing at Aberdeen and they were used well into the early 1970's for HV salvo (.50 BMG) testing as well I believe. The only .50 BMG conversions I have ever shot were the Boys & the Lahti,I never seen a .50 conversion of the Mauser 13mm rifle though. Regards, JH
 
#9 · (Edited)
Good Morning All,

Sorry for jumping in after two years with your thread. I am working up my T-Gewehr and would like to know where you are in your projects.

My brass, after a 6 month wait, is due in August from RCC Brass. Dies have been a major issue with CH4D, who have always been amazing, they are now backed up for 2 years!! So I went looking and got some good recommendations for Warner Tools. Alan will have mine ready in 2-3 months. Solid copper bullets came from Hammer Bullets and the only issue I have left is the powder.

I have had a jug of H50BMG for many years and would like to use it. However, I do see that most folks are using WC872. How much should I reduce my charge?

As my rifle is near mint #256, I am looking to replace my stamped bipod with the original cast.

Looking forward to the conversation. Thanks, Randy
 
#14 ·
Good Morning All,

Sorry for jumping in after two years with your thread. I am working up my T-Gewehr and would like to know where you are in your prodjects.

My brass, after a 6 month wait, is due in August from RCC Brass. Dies have been a major issue with CH4D, who have always been amazing, they are now backed up for 2 years!! So I went looking and got some good recommendations for Warner Tools. Alan will have mine ready in 2-3 months. Solid copper bullets came from Hammer Bullets and the only issue I have left is the powder.

I have had a jug of H50BMG for many years and would like to use it. However, I do see that most folks are using WC872. How much should I reduce my charge?

As my rifle is near mint #256, I am looking to replace my stamped bipod with the original cast.

Looking forward to the conversation. Thanks, Randy
Randy,

Yeah these guys are all using my designs to supply you. I asked them to put me into contact with you but they didn't do it. Please email me a phone number if you don't mind. phiteshe@vt.edu

RCC told me we are on the schedule for September 5th. I have been waiting for 2 years so don't hold your breath.

CH4D had some dies in stock that should work. I bought them. I changed the brass slightly so they should work with the CH4D dies they have made in stock.

Hammer bullets was still working on them the last I heard. They wanted to check some dimensions with me but did not tell me they were making a production run... some of these guys.

Powder is the issues I have not finished with. We really need the final design of the bullet and brass to know the internal volume left. 50BMG powder was not recommended but it might be the only thing out there. I have a few other ideas.

If you have a MG08/15 bipod. There are two versions of the T-Gewehr bipod, one with cast feet and one with stamped feet.

Lets talk later. I just got back from camping and I have to run to the Naval Academy today but send me your phone number and I will give you a call.

Can I ask about the Ammomaster-2 press versus my Lee Classic Cast press. The Lee was extremely smooth as I cycled the press while the Ammomaster has play in the linkages that seem almost to wobble. However, the ram is massive and moves flawlessly with no play. Wondering if RCBS left some room for having to work the large cases a bit harder than most cases. Randy
I bought the Ammomaster 2. It seems to work well but I have not used it much.
 
#10 · (Edited)
@Rescuerandy2
Good to see you here finally after i linked you to this forum thread :) I left instruction on how to reach the level so you can communicate directly with IMBLITZVT to get the you both shooting back at "Home " !!
And welcome to the most friendly and knowledgeable public forum on the net bar none !!!!!
Once you reach the comm`s level you will be able to post a WTB for the correct bipod and this is your best bet to find one , we have sources that you will find nowhere else and reach into Europe .....
 
#13 ·
Can I ask about the Ammomaster-2 press versus my Lee Classic Cast press. The Lee was extremely smooth as I cycled the press while the Ammomaster has play in the linkages that seem almost to wobble. However, the ram is massive and moves flawlessly with no play. Wondering if RCBS left some room for having to work the large cases a bit harder than most cases. Randy
 
#16 ·
CH4D had a die set on the shelf but was missing one of the dies. That set me back 2.5 years! Alan at Warner tools is on it now and estimated 2-3 months. At almost double the cost but his dies look amazing.

Roger that on the cast bipod. Seems to work fine and I can understand it being lighter perhaps a nice expedient as the MG 08/15 were much more plentiful with their bipods.

Randy
 
#24 ·
@Rescuerandy2 @IMBLITZVT
Hello gentlemen,
Ultimately who did you guys end up using for your new brass RCC? I looked into getting stuff made for my father's T-Gewehr a few years ago but never followed through with anything. I too could only find manufactures who had a fairly high bullet minimum order and setup fees.

A couple years ago, I purchased a set of CH4D dies for him, as well as modified 50bmg brass by swadging a rim onto the cartridge. We never progressed any further due to not having suitable projectiles besides one that I hand turned on a manual lathe.
 
#25 ·
Good Morning All,

One step forward and 10 steps back! RCC sent me bankruptcy letters last month, and it looks like reproducing the T-Gewehr case is a NoGo as many other manufacturers will not take this on. Brian in Manitoba is adept at fabricating and shooting with 50BMG, which will now be the way forward. Many folks use them in the T-Gewehr but have issues getting a total extraction for ejection.

Not one to sit in such a situation, Brian and I have been in discussion about how to overcome this situation. At this time, the bolt is at John Taylor's shop in Idaho for an opinion on two requests:

1. Making an extractor that has an extended claw that can engage the BMG "rimless" rim
2. Creating a two-piece insert that will fit on the bolthead, not permanently, so the BMG case will be centered in the bolt
allowing for the new extractor to catch and hold the case till the extractor kicks in

The extended-claw extractor may be all we need, but let's see if John can set it up. We should be hearing from John next week.

Randy
 
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