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Discussion Starter #1
Just brought this nice cart home a couple weeks ago. Appears to be 99% complete. It's just missing a few leather straps. The tool boxes were stored separately and still have very nice paint.



 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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Ya know, you really show a knack for making some of us insanely jealous, envious, and downright annoyed that you found such a beautiful piece and the rest of us did not. Way to go. :mad:

Seriously, a tremendous find and you are to be congratulated. (Though I really am very envious!!) Thanks for sharing this beauty with us! :cool:
 

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Very nice!
 

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Beautiful...and original too...

Outstanding historical find...!! Congratulations on your description of the cart. It has the wood ends on the ammo carrier and looks to be a complete cart. I would assume that the brass tag on the front cross member is below 109,000...? If not,please advise and I'd like to see a pic of the tag itself. The stamped metal ammo carrier ends for both the ammo and gun carts were used after the 109,000 serial number....at least the ones I've studied so far. The only leather strap that I cannot see is the shovel strap that is placed between the inner rails and keeps the shovel from falling out of its place just to the left of the pick/mattox carrier. The wood tool boxes were not shipped in the crate from the factory... the International Harvester Co.,McCormick plant in Chicago. Both the gun box and the tool boxes were made on-site,as every Army post had a carpenter shop. The rest of the carts,just as your ammo cart,was complete in-the-crate. The shovel,broad axe and pick/mattox were issue items...but not included in the shipping crate. I applaud your find and hope you can do what little restoration work...maybe a fresh coat of paint (?)...is necessary to make it look as-new. I offer a set of the original manuals...the 1918 Carlisle Barracks issue and the 26 Oct 1926 SNL...for $40.00 delivered. Contact me for any further info...800 380-4867.

And the spare pole frame was also shipped in-the-crate. I've only had 1-ammo cart come with that item...the ammo cart in-the-crate I found in 2013.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks!

Well, you've taught me a little more about these carts. My serial number is in the 103,000 or 104,000 range. I actually got two carts from the same place. The other is missing some parts like the ammo box rack. It also came with a spare shaft.
 

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...a little more...

...you are welcomed...to the site and for your appreciation of the 1917 Machine Gun Cart series of WW1 equipment. Most folks do not know that these were the last animal-drawn combat equipment used in the US military. I,as well as others,would like to see the pic's of the brass tags on your carts. And I suggest that you peruse the handcartz.com web site of the worlds largest cart collector,Mr. Craig Johnson,who is from your neck of the woods in WA. Craig is also a site member and has a 1917 Gun cart in-the-crate that he is restoring. You can include pic's of your carts and the brass tags,as we are trying to find out how many of these carts still exist in the US.

After a closer look at the wheels,I believe that they are the 8-felly type...used before 1926. And the wood ammo carrier ends are riveted...not bolted. Believe this was changed in 1926 also. Trying to determine various time/date changes to the production,as the records from the original McCormick plant were sent to the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Still trying to find the serial number records for their production,but believe these carts were made between 1917-1928. They were still in use...for training...all the way thru 1945 when they were declared obsolete and sold,scrapped or given to local farmers.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
cart

I'm very familiar with Craig's website. If you look through his lists of known serial numbers you'll see my name listed there many times. I'll get some pics of my data plates posted soon. I don't think I've sent them to Craig yet.
As for my new cart, I've been after it for at least 12 years. We finally made a deal a few weeks ago. The previous owner had planned on scrapping them and using the wheels for a home made cannon. I'm glad I talked him out of it.
So during those 12 years of waiting I've gathered enough Vickers and Browning ammo boxes and water chests to fill it. Along with most of the other accessories. I'm currently rounding up the tools for the tool roll.
Do you know if the Army ever had a work order to add a pintle hook to the M1917 ammo cart to limber the Wheeled Machinegun Mount to it? I've seen it done with the later M2 ammo cart.
 

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...other carts...

Along with the 1917 Machine Gun Cart series,International Harvester made the 37MM gun carriage and the 37MM ammo cart. The 37MM Ammo cart was fitted with a pintle system that would make it able to tow the gun carriage. The 37MM ammo cart was the same as the 1917 Ammo cart. The only difference being the brass tag as the designation. Same ammo carrier,same frame,wheels,everything. I have one of the pintle sets that bolts to the 2-inner frame rails of the 37MM ammo cart.

It would be interesting to know where your carts came from. Almost every cart I've found was within a stones throw of a WW1 Army training base. I'd also appreciate info regarding what the purchase price was. And glad to help complete your other ammo cart,as I've either made or had someone make every part on all the carts.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
carts

I would very much like to see your pintle set. I assume that it used the same Pintle, M1, as the T4E1 Minneapolis Moline cart?
My carts came out of Idaho.
Now I'm curious to see if the 37mm ammo boxes will fit in my ammo cart's bracket. I'll let you know what I find out.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
boxes

I tried my 37mm box and it's too tall by 3/8". Of course the Vickers and Browning boxes fit fine.
 

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...good to know...

Believe there was a minor change to the brackets to make room for the 37MM boxes. Hayes Otoapolic has a complete 37MM gun carriage and the ammo cart sitting in his display room. I recognized the pintle set up and later was given one. After the Army went to the metal gun cart...about 1930-32,they used the same pintle set up on the 1917 Ammo cart to tow the gun cart...got pictures of this. _12.JPG
 

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Discussion Starter #13
gun cart

I have a restored 1933 dated Wheeled Machinegun Mount, M1, that I would like to hitch up to my new M1917 Ammunition Cart. That picture you posted is too small for me to make out any details though. So the pintle hook was an "aftermarket" addition to the M1917 cart. I'd like to see more details if possible.
 

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37MM ammo box in original 37MM Cart ammo box rack.



Non of the other styles of boxes fit.

Left to right: 1917 Spare parts, 37MM, Vickers, Vickers, Water box, 1917 Ammo.



All boxes fit in Machine gun Cart except 37MM. The box is to tall to fit between the saide racks. Most are a tight fit and I dont want to force them in and scratch them up.



Here is the Pintle?? for the 37MM Cart. Just a guess but I think it is only for the 37MM Cannon.



Hayes 37MM Cart and Cannon/Gun






As found. Later sold one to Hayes, Len has a pintle. Found them in Hayes backyard in Montana. He procrastinated about going to get them. My Dad and I showed up to visit him on the way back home and he was like what the F*&^. He got one in the end though.

 

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...Hotchkiss 1"...

Have similar pics I took of Hayes's ammo cart and pintle with the Hotchkiss 1" cannon being towed. Look at the loose rounds that are on top of the ammo cart,as I recall that Hayes said it was the Hotchkiss gun. My eyes are old and my memory is going...but believe that is correct.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks Craig and Len for the added comments and photos. My plan is to add a pintle hook to the ammo cart and limber my Wheeled MG Mount to it like in the last photo. I found a NOS pintle hook but now need better photos of how it attaches to the cart.
In the mean time, here it is assembled and some new leather installed. Still have a little ways to go.



 
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