Question on extractors
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I believe most were machined. Saginaw was the one casting with Armasteel but have never seen evidence they ever cast their extractors. Saco Lowell produced guns post war but have never heard of it for these. The castings were used to cut down machine time and materials involved. Not sure how worthwhile it was to use this on something the size of the extractor much less the abuse they have to put up with.
Curious what you are thinking of
Curious what you are thinking of
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I'm with GSG on this. Never seen an example of an extractor that looked like a casting. I do have a couple of SAK 1919 extractors, as well as post war RIA mfg. Still no indication of a casting, so far as I noticed. Not like I was thinking about that and looking for it. It is true that many of the cast pattern parts that were Saginaw exclusives in WWII were produced in the 50s for current production A6s at SAK and RIA. Just don't think this applies to the extractor.
Oh, and I am also curious as to what raised the question!
Oh, and I am also curious as to what raised the question!
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The hole you refer to was a fairly late revision, not present on extractors from WWI or well into WWII production. Don't know the date of that addition, and I don't know if kkkriverrats has the full drawing history either. But I do have one extractor that appears to be a complete, Israeli made assembly. I've had a couple of Izzy marked ejectors, but this is the first complete Izzy made extractor assembly I have come across. Don't recall if it has the hole or not, but will try to find it Saturday and let you know.
If your extractor has no USGI markings- either a drawing number, mfg code or flaming bomb mark, it could be Israeli made.
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Dan Buffalo Arms was a war time production company and they closed in 1945. They only made the 30's for a couple years but were the main supplier of supplemental spares through out the war.
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GC is Gellman Manufacturin Co. Rock Island IL They were a parts only manufacturer from about 10-44 on. Gellman made extractors and ejectors and maybe other part that we haven't seen yet.
The hole in the extractor arm was to ID the D44087 extractor as there were at least 3 different extractor drawings with 2 shown as "usuable" in the post war SNL
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Dan, early production internals were in the white. I do not know when they decided to start parkerizing the internals but suspect it was post war. Tou can find Saginaw Buffallo Arms and others internals still in the white. When hunting the early parts for Remington and Westinghouse it is a bonus to find them unmolested in the white. I have a couple sets set aside for my early projects
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That's an Izzy mark on the ejector the D44087 extractor (the one with the hole in the arm) dates from October 1942 and it has a short pivot pin (there might have been an intermediate length pin also) not the longer style like yours. This may be a USGI part (either the C8353 or C8454) modified with an Izzy made ejector. The C8453 had a pivot pin length of 1.39" measured form the out side of the arm to the end of the pivot pin. The older style extractor assemblies are likely not been piece marked. The C8454 had a length of pivot pin 1.06" measured in the same way as the C8453. SOOOOOO measure the pivot pin on yours and let us know. Oddly enough the C8454 dates from 4-27 while the C8453 dates from 6-31 which is the common date for M1917 drawings converted from Class and Division to letter size naming convention. Piece marking of parts didn't become common until just before WWII
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I call it a C8454 modified by the Izzys with their own ejector or a USGI ejector modified by them and marked. We really don't have a clue what they were doing.
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Here is the complete Extractor Assembly I have, which appears to be wholly made in Israel. The six-pointed star is not something I have ever seen on any USGI extractor that came back from Israel. Next is a comparison of an Israeli marked and, I assume, Israeli manufactured ejector, next to a known USGI RIA made ejector. Now while I have heard from many sources that the Israelis modified the USGI ejectors in some fashion, I remain unable to distinguish any change on the many I have looked at. While it's just my opinion, I think that is simple rumor that has been accepted as fact along the way. I just haven't seen it, and I've had a look at a bunch of these. While I don't have the kind of precise measuring tools to compare all the angles and radii between the two, any differences one can try to discern are as likely to be just mfg tolerances as anything else. Some of what the pics show is exaggerated due to the angle being slightly different in the lens perspective, even when side by side. In hand, they look as identical as I can see by the naked eye. I have loose RIA, SG, BA and W ejectors and the profiles all can vary just a hair here and there, and these are ones that were never in Israel.
Now the extractor body here might be a rare, unmarked USGI made one, that someone just stamped that star on at IDF. But I think it is an indication that the Israelis did make some. I am certain of the ejectors, as that specific mark is the one found on the cartridge spacers, belt holding and feed pawls, etc that we KNOW they made over there.
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What's the length on the pivot pin? I don't think that the early extractors C8453 and C8454 were piece marked just the later one with the hole.
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The length of the pin on my Israeli assembly is 1.060, same as what Rustyiron is showing on his. I have a couple of C8454-2 SG assemblies and a C8454-13 SG with no hole, an RIA C8454-11 with no hole, an RIA and an S.G. D44087, then S.G. D44087-2, all with the hole. Pin length on all of these is within tolerance of that 1.060", and I don't know if you have the date of when they shortened the pin as is shown on the 1948 drawings. It was probably done fairly late in the war, I would think. But most WWII extractors I see are this mid length pin, while the WWI pin example I just pulled is 1.385. I usually only see the real short pin on extractors with post war drawing numbers, which do not turn up that often. That's called out at .772 on the 48 drawing. While I see the body drawing became C8453 in the 6-31 change from class and division numbers, I don't recall ever seeing that marking. Also not sure why they would have both 8453 and 8454 for the same part, unless 8454 is the assembly number. 8453 is definitely the body dimension drawing. I have the view drawing from 9-30-1936 showing C8453 and then revision 1 of the same drawing, in 1-18-1939, showing C8454. So that is confusing. The 1918M1 Aircraft set, 1931 revision, uses C8454. Humph!
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The C8454 is the letter prefix conversion from the 51-10 drawing, I think the C8453 drawing with the shorter (intermediate) pin was developed by SA as a substitute or alternate design and since it originated in 1927 it received a letter prefix number. Since the change over to letter prefix started in 1922 Ordnance probably assigned letter prefix numbers well in advance of the the June 1931 date common to the M1917 conversion drawings. C8454 and C8454A (apparently another alternate method of manufacture by a note on the C8454 drawing) became D44087 in Oct. 1942 by revision 17 which is the last activity on the drawing. From what I can see on these drawings The C8454 & C8454A were combined on D44087 because it shows the alternate method of manufacture and the original. Also there is a D44087 Rev 1 (7-22-42 that shows only the piece marking and the hole and changes to the plunger hole) with a note to see C8454 and C8454A. The D44087 drawing indicates that the really short pivot pin (.772) was adopted by Rev 3 (4-20-43). Does this make things more or less confusing?
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