right rear cart. guide problem

3425 Views 19 Replies 7 Participants Last post by Finalygotabeltfed, Aug 2, 2006

Chad G

Discussion Starter · Jul 11, 2006

2

My problem is when I try to rivet the guide in place the rivet backs out and isnt sucked in tight into the chamfer, I drilled out the rivet last nite and thought I'd be smart and make another one out of a threaded bolt that fits inside the hole-kinda snug. I just smashed that and it turned cockeyedand twisted. The hole is .010 off of where it should be(closer to the link exit), I wouldnt think that-that small of a fraction would make this much truoble. I tapped the hole to see if I could get it to tighten up but it didnt work

, my last resort is to weld the phugger on, or scrap

a RSP. I just cannt seem to find anyway to smash the stupid rivet in place, I have a machinists Vise and various C clamps, I have no more room otherwise I would get a bench top press. any ideas?

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Commander47

· #2 · Jul 11, 2006

You might be able to do the AK 47 Rivit Tool trick. For $9.00 you can get a pair of 24 inch bolt cutters. Grind the jaws so that one end is flat, and the other has a slight hollow. I will try and post a picture.

My question for you though is this....how are you going to do all the other rivits? You either need an air compressor with an air hammer/muffler tool/chisel, or a small bench top press. The bolt cutter rivit tool won't reach in far enough for the inner rivets.

Also, it isn't a good idea to use a bolt, the metal won't spread and fill the hole like a rivet will.

Chad G

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jul 11, 2006

I have an Air compressor and an hammer with rivet tool that i made. My only problem is with this rivet the work holding device that i ahve isnt suffiecent enough to hold it. I gtg to work, be back in 4 hours. I plan on using a grade 8 bolt as a bucking tool

Kali Komrade

· #4 · Jul 11, 2006

He's correct

He's correct about the bolt thing the metal is not soft enough to fill the void. Bolts are a harder steel. When you got your rivet kit you should have gotten some extra rivets with it use one of those. Make sure that you have chamferred the hole on the outside of the RSP at least 1/3 of the thickness through then find a nice hard flat metal object and put your new rivet in your right rear cartridge stop and through your RSP hole then place it on top of that hard flat metal surface and pound the snot out of it with your hammer. That gap at the front should not really be much of an issue but if you do not have a hard surface to buck that rivet on it will not tighten up and it will go further astray... Third time will be the charm

Abwehr

· #5 · Jul 12, 2006

Rivet

That little rivet is aggravating to buck, but not too bad. I used a Grade 8 Bolt as "Chad G" suggested and it worked out fine. The rivet is tight! One caution with the Bolt is if you are using an air hammer for riveting, watch the Bolt closely as the vibration tends to make the Bolt move and could slide from under the rivet head. Also watch it is you are using a big hammer too, the Bolt can still move and not know it.

Chad G

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jul 12, 2006

I wont bother making another bolt to try out, it takes an hour to make one on the drill press, I dropped a plug gage in the RSP hole and it measured .203 the hole in the RRCG measures .248, thinking that I may need a replacement guide.

The BB rivet set has extra rivets, but the correct size for this one hole, No!

Kali Komrade

· #7 · Jul 12, 2006

Hey

Hey Chad whose rivet set did you get? If Im not mistaken that is supposed to be a 3/16 of an inch hole or at the most a 13/64 hole (1.875 and .203) If you got the ORF rivets I would have drilled it out to the 3/16 first then tried the fit. I don't think you need a new rear cartridge stop you need a little longer rivet the slop in the RRCS would be taken up by the extra length of the rivet... I just ordered some more rivets from my source that are a little longer because I didn't like the fit of my rivets that attach the side plate if you need some give me shout...

Commander47

· #8 · Jul 12, 2006

The rivet in my gun is the same size as the eight lower rivets. I have lots of extras in my kit.

Remember though, you can probably go oversize without affecting that cartridge stop in the least.

I guess you are trying to seat this rivet after you attached the side plate?

Kali Komrade

· #9 · Jul 12, 2006

Hey

Hey Commander I think we both have the same rivet set you have ORF right??
Now the ORF rivets are great if your holes are 3/16 everywhere but some of mine are oversized and I wasn't getting nice round head on them so I ordered some longer ones and Im going to cut them down. Most of the meat of my rivet went into the chamfer on the bottom plate thats why Im getting them a little longer. Chads holes could be a little larger too and not enough meat to fill in the hole with especially if he over chamferred the RRCS on the RSP... Just a thought

Chad G

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jul 13, 2006

its not really the rivets that caused my problem (I bought black bear rivets) I mic'd all of the rivets prior to drilling and either used the size of drill bit closest to the rivet or cut my own drill bit(I had to grind my own 11/32 bit to mark the trunion holes, no worries I reassembled it to make sure). Its really stupid, this is the only rivet holding me up, I mocked up everything prior to drilling or marking hole w/ drills everything lines rite up., I have a half a notion to skip it for the time being and move on. The hole in the RSP is "-.203" thats a plug gauge. I will probably place an order very soon to Grainger and pick a bunch of rivets to practice on a little more, I only have drill press to help trim rivets so....Im limited as to how much hacking I can do to one.

And yes the guide was very loose.

stearmandriver

· #11 · Jul 13, 2006

I think you should take your RSP, rivet, and stop thingy and go to your local machine shop or maybe even a Harbour Freight store and 'borrow' their 20ton press. That whould at least get you past that one rivet.

Finalygotabeltfed

· #12 · Jul 13, 2006

The way you do it is to put a piece of rectangular bar stock that is narrow enough to fit in front of the LEFT rear cartridge stop and BEHIND the RIGHT rear cartridge stop.
I think that something about 1/2 to 5/8 thick by 1 1/2 wide should do it. This is used as a bucking bar. Place your bar in a bench vise and tighten the **** out of it, with the bar standing upright so the gun can lay on its side and not contact the vise.

You lay the gun on its side, resting it on the inside of the rivet, heat the rivet to cherry red and peen it by hand (careful not to ding the outside of the RSP) with a hammer using square blows first to expand the rivet, then use the ball to spread it out into the chamfer. Grind off smoothe, polish, blast and finish.
I've done more than a dozen this way in a friends shop and all of them turned out perfect.

The key to solid rivetting is A. leaving enough of the rivet(about 1 1/2 its thickness) to peen and B. bucking the rivet properly so it compresses and expands. Heating them also causes them to contract when they cool and they tighten up even more. Every one I've built was hot riveted and none have ever loosened.

That rivet is a 3/16 rivet and you can grind the larger head of any common rivet to fit it if necessary.

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American_pride

· #13 · Jul 14, 2006

Why not just weld it on??????

Chad G

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jul 14, 2006

I'll try making my own rivet with a shoulder on it thats just enough to capture the guide and tighten it up, welding will be a last resort.

I started bucking rivets this morning, going very well, got 3 lowers done, in a few hours I will be the new owner of a built 1919.

Kali Komrade

· #15 · Jul 14, 2006

Good luck

Good luck man and thanks for the Email the other day. Guess we all have our trials and tribulations on builds. Don't give up we'll all get there sooner or later. I got stopped in my tracks because of my trigger and sear situation but someone over at Allied Arms gave me the answer the other day so hopefully I'll hit the range this weekend too...

Chad G

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jul 16, 2006

Ha! a few hours turns into several days, its been 115 degrees here working outside is like standing infront of a rosebud w/ black clothing on...

Well it took me awhile to get the hang of bashing rivets in lol, lower plate holes are done, they dont look pretty but they are doing the job required-will need to dress them all up. I ended up having a problem with the 3rd rivet from the back using the bolt as a bucking tool, there wasnt much room to lock the bolt in place and I ended drilling that rivet out twice-good thing my hair is short I'da been pulling it out. I didnt have much success with the airhammer and the conical tool I made, in the long run the ball peen hammer sunk them at a faster rate of about 20 blows as opposed to the air hammers several hundred, I screwd up and made a few 1/2 moons on the RSP :< due to too using the max setting on the tool. top plate and remaining trunion, cartridge stops rivets are all thats left- R.J. Leahys' rivets are showing Wednesday to help me finish it. When I am done I will be making a set of bucking bars from the steel beams I have outback, the bolt works, its cheap and easy. I have also learned that bucket loader teeth wrist pins are an excellent rivet smasher, diamond or carbide tools cut them.

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Kali Komrade

· #17 · Jul 18, 2006

Well your almost there

Well your almost there man... When I started Bucking my trunion rivets I used a mini sledge it worked really good

I also flattened them on both sides to work them more into the chamfer. Heat well... I musta sweated out the weight of the gun, the lower desert in Kali isn't much cooler plus its humid from all the dorks that gotta have lawns and golf courses I say bull doze it all and turn it into a gunrange... You'll be test firing in no time...

Chad G

Discussion Starter · #18 · Aug 2, 2006

Okay after several debates with the otherside of my brain about making the hole bigger-which usually adds to my problems, I made the decision the drill the hole 1/4" and beat the shat out of a 1/4" dia rivet, what a workout those are, a royal PIMA. The end result is the smashed rivet is the size of a .25cent piece., its tight now.

Kali Komrade

· #19 · Aug 2, 2006

So...

So are you ready for a test fire yet Chad?

Finalygotabeltfed

· #20 · Aug 2, 2006

Like they say, "Never time to do it right but always time to do it over"

I outlined in my previous post how to do that rivet after the sideplate had been rivetted by using a rectangular piece of steel clamped in a vise as a bucking bar and the gun turned on its left side.

You could have used 3/16ths rod stock and made a rivet by forming the head in a piece of steel plate with a 3/16ths hole drilled into the center of a 3/8 countersunk hole then grind the edge of it to fit the cartridge stop.

Oh well, if its tight its tight.

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