shipping to kommie cal
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Joined
·
7,865 Posts
Good question.....!!!
Want to play games with BATF....? Can you afford being rousted out of bed in the middle of the night,having your family under the barrels of MP-5 full auto guns in the hands of thugs...? Want to spend time in jail...? Can you define an "80% RSP" and have BATF agree with you...? Just a few of the many questions I would not want to have to deal with....and I've been at this for 32 yrs. Suggest you DO NOT send anything like this to CA. Of course....thats just my considered, professional opinion. Thats why I'm selling only 100% RSP's....and building as many 1919's as I can afford to and still maintain my gun shop. NOTICE...I am not saying anything about being "illegal" to have /sell/ship an 80% rsp for any civilians.
Want to play games with BATF....? Can you afford being rousted out of bed in the middle of the night,having your family under the barrels of MP-5 full auto guns in the hands of thugs...? Want to spend time in jail...? Can you define an "80% RSP" and have BATF agree with you...? Just a few of the many questions I would not want to have to deal with....and I've been at this for 32 yrs. Suggest you DO NOT send anything like this to CA. Of course....thats just my considered, professional opinion. Thats why I'm selling only 100% RSP's....and building as many 1919's as I can afford to and still maintain my gun shop. NOTICE...I am not saying anything about being "illegal" to have /sell/ship an 80% rsp for any civilians.
As someone who lives here,my professional opinion after buying a couple pieces of metal and finishing them into workable right side plates as well as a finished 1919 shipped thru my ffl, you CAN INDEED ship them to CALIFORNIA.
I wouldn't consider telling people what is or isn't acceptable for a state I didn't live in, it would be nice if others were as courteous.
A little testy am I? Yes, I'm a little tired of people acting on such false information and paranoia. Aside from not being able to buy certain weapons our laws here are not that bad. I've heard people from other states talk about some of their gun laws and on ocassion I'm damn happy because it's NOT a law or restriction we have here.
Roy
Joined
·
1,389 Posts
My feelings on the subject are that they either are a firearm receiver or not, there is no clear cut definition of what is or isn't either. If the BATF thought they had a case on unfinished sideplates they would have made with HALO, instead they just shut him down with threat's, they didn't want to have this defined either or have to explain why a piece of metal is a firearm when it takes work to make it functional to a jury.
The thing is they accomplished what they set out to do, scare people who were making there own firearms and shut down a major source of those materials.
The thing is if they had a case they wouldn't just tell you cease and desist, they would have your ASS in jail.
This action or lack of it by them sends a clear signal that what was being sold was legal, just not liked by them.
JMTCW
The thing is they accomplished what they set out to do, scare people who were making there own firearms and shut down a major source of those materials.
The thing is if they had a case they wouldn't just tell you cease and desist, they would have your ASS in jail.
This action or lack of it by them sends a clear signal that what was being sold was legal, just not liked by them.
JMTCW
Joined
·
8,769 Posts
Thank you, Brian. It is also worth pointing out that the Halo case did not initiate with BATFE, but rather with the CA DOJ. But the argument Brian makes still applies. Nothing changed except the decision of certain plate makers to go the 100% route only. ORF and others still sell unfinished plates here. Halo will be back in the plate business soon.
Joined
·
7,865 Posts
...disclaimer...
Gues I'd better tone it down a little. Should have said....."Its not against any law to have in your posession,buy or sell any piece of metal that has/was/is considered by the BATF to NOT be a firearm." Here's the rub: BATF is after as many gun dealers as they can put out of business. I am a class # 7 FFL...a Manufacturer of firearms other then FA or DD. In my case,selling an "80%" RSP would or might make me suspect to BATF's interpetation...and I don't need the hassle. Sorry if I scared or intimidated anyone or affected any on going deals for 80% RSP's. Its just that as a dealer I have to be wary and watch my "6" from all angles.
Gues I'd better tone it down a little. Should have said....."Its not against any law to have in your posession,buy or sell any piece of metal that has/was/is considered by the BATF to NOT be a firearm." Here's the rub: BATF is after as many gun dealers as they can put out of business. I am a class # 7 FFL...a Manufacturer of firearms other then FA or DD. In my case,selling an "80%" RSP would or might make me suspect to BATF's interpetation...and I don't need the hassle. Sorry if I scared or intimidated anyone or affected any on going deals for 80% RSP's. Its just that as a dealer I have to be wary and watch my "6" from all angles.
Joined
·
8,769 Posts
No sweat, Len. That is exactly why some plate mfgs, besides Halo, are only going 100%. It is definitely the safer choice from a business standpoint. It just is a bummer for those of us home builders who hate paper trails.
The guy that wants to ship the 80% side plate didn't state whether he was a dealer or not. I assume he's not? If so, I would ship the sideplate, since there's probably no numbers or address on it. The guy building the gun would have to do this. As a dealer however, I would take a more cautious approach and probably insist on shipping only a 100% plate.
I was a Class 3 SOT for 28 years and for the last two years, I've changed over to a 07 Mfg. 02 SOT. I get yearly compliance cks. and have never had a problem. I do however know of dealers that have had problems with BATF and it's no picnic! Most of the ATF field agents don't have the least idea what a 1919A4 is let alone an 80% sideplate. They're more into dotting "I" s and crossing "T"s and bitching about paperwork errors. Their's a lot of paranoia about ATF Agents kicking in doors etc. They usually don't do this, but they sure as hell can if they "suspect" something might be afoul.
Dont misinterpetate my comments about ATF agents all being great guys. Some are definitley assholes, (just like the rest of us) and when I run into one of these, I don't take any of their bait! I agree with 30 cal. that the CA dude that wants the sideplate might have a bigger issue with the CA DOJ than BATFE.
CA. gets a bad rap on their gun laws, many of which I don't agree with, but I still sell firearms to CA. people. Yes it's a pain in the ass, jumping through the extra hoops that go into effect tomorrow thanks to the CA DOJ. However, the people that live there and have/buy guns are people with the same interest that I have. If I lived in the State of CA. I'd have at least a dozen 1919s and enough ammo to melt the barrels out of every damn one of them. They're gonna need em in the not so distant future.
LOL "MUCKER"
I was a Class 3 SOT for 28 years and for the last two years, I've changed over to a 07 Mfg. 02 SOT. I get yearly compliance cks. and have never had a problem. I do however know of dealers that have had problems with BATF and it's no picnic! Most of the ATF field agents don't have the least idea what a 1919A4 is let alone an 80% sideplate. They're more into dotting "I" s and crossing "T"s and bitching about paperwork errors. Their's a lot of paranoia about ATF Agents kicking in doors etc. They usually don't do this, but they sure as hell can if they "suspect" something might be afoul.
Dont misinterpetate my comments about ATF agents all being great guys. Some are definitley assholes, (just like the rest of us) and when I run into one of these, I don't take any of their bait! I agree with 30 cal. that the CA dude that wants the sideplate might have a bigger issue with the CA DOJ than BATFE.
CA. gets a bad rap on their gun laws, many of which I don't agree with, but I still sell firearms to CA. people. Yes it's a pain in the ass, jumping through the extra hoops that go into effect tomorrow thanks to the CA DOJ. However, the people that live there and have/buy guns are people with the same interest that I have. If I lived in the State of CA. I'd have at least a dozen 1919s and enough ammo to melt the barrels out of every damn one of them. They're gonna need em in the not so distant future.
LOL "MUCKER"
Joined
·
1,021 Posts
I think a single 80% plate would not cause any problems with atfE, and is legal to own / sell/ ship to PRK. I don't have a problem with paper trails, I have a problem paying all that extra coin to the FFL dealer, taxes and waiting 10 days for a hunk of plate steel, cause some one, decided to put a number on it... But I did it, because that was the only option I had; as 80% have dried up. KMP makes a great 100% plate and I know the build was much smother, faster with the machining being done by a pro. I think the halo deal was too many plates were geting "out" with no way to track them down by atfE. Too bad atfE can get away with enforcing rules that are not laws and make business people follow through fear and intimidation....B2B
Also, the CADOJ is quick say they will bring charges, even when they are 100% wrong. Most people won't know the law or don't want to fight even though they are 100% legal. There have been several cases here recently where they confiscated guns under CA's AWB only to later have to give them back, with no charges because they where legal. It takes time and money even though you are legal. It is wrong but they do it anyways. One county DA just sued the CADOJ over the AWB definition of a flash suppressor as being unenforcable and word is he won (still waiting on the exact ruling). It is an on going battle but hopefully the recent court cases will help end this.
Joined
·
8,769 Posts
Just for the record, Halo was NOT the intended subject of that investigation, but came about as collateral to a PRK case that went to another shop out of state, before Halo's name came up. It all went nowhere, and there was no big agenda from any agency per se. But once you get a zealot like Tommy the Ho out of the S.F. ATFE office, well, as mucker pointed out, some of them are in a class of their own. The effect was the same, but let me re state that this was not a big push to go after plates, it just took a turn in that direction before falling flat.
The Question Is Should I Sell a 80% RSP
Gentlemen, the issue is not shipping a 80% plate to the Great State of California, the issue is weather or not a private party should sell a 80% plate to anybody, anywhere...
Given the lack of a "80%" definition, the OP'er needs to determine if the risk of a BATF intervention is outside of his comfort level... As a private seller, I wouldn't worry at all...
If I were a FFL Dealer or Manufacture, because of the lack of definition, Halo and others, I would not risk transactions involving 80% RSP... Compared to selling 100% plates I could not imagine marketing in 80% plates to be worth the risk... Hell it wouldn't make zero difference if you were in West LA or S. Bend IN...
Why hasn't any manufacture sent a partially completed RSP to BATF&E's Firearms Tech branch for a determination?
Gentlemen, the issue is not shipping a 80% plate to the Great State of California, the issue is weather or not a private party should sell a 80% plate to anybody, anywhere...
Given the lack of a "80%" definition, the OP'er needs to determine if the risk of a BATF intervention is outside of his comfort level... As a private seller, I wouldn't worry at all...
If I were a FFL Dealer or Manufacture, because of the lack of definition, Halo and others, I would not risk transactions involving 80% RSP... Compared to selling 100% plates I could not imagine marketing in 80% plates to be worth the risk... Hell it wouldn't make zero difference if you were in West LA or S. Bend IN...
Why hasn't any manufacture sent a partially completed RSP to BATF&E's Firearms Tech branch for a determination?
Joined
·
8,769 Posts
They have. Halo sent samples in and they were returned without comment. By phone he was told they would not make a determination on unfinished plates. But they would not put that in writing. This was before the incident, at which time they took samples of each model plate with the promise to return a determination shortly. One year later, and still waiting!
As a mfg. I wouldn't be interested in submitting an 80% sideplate to the BATFE Tec Branch. I would prefer to sell 100% plates. Eventually the thing becomes a 100% sideplate anyway. It's a conflict of interest. As a 07 Mfg. of Firearms, you Mfg. "Firearms" not parts of firearms. You don't need a Mfg. license to mfg. parts. (With the exception of the receiver) I could never figure what makes a plate 80% anyway? Why isn't it a 72% sideplate or a 81% etc. etc. This is certainly a "grey" area. It's like S**T, the more you stir it the more it stinks!
As for you guys in the Golden State, your CADOJ is definitley a bunch of super anti gun creeps. (Thats as polite as I can be!) I'm glad to hear that a DA sued the Bastards and purportedly won! You gotta be like the Brits were in WWll and NEVER GIVE UP! Eventually this thing will all shake out. Extremes are followed by opposite extremes. That's how you get averages. Unfortunatley, at this time in history, the gun owners in CA. have to cope with some "extremely" stupid laws. Eventually this will change (hopefully in my lifetime!) Someone will step up to the plate and say "enough is enough". Maybe your Grandkids will have it like the "good ol days". Sounds optimistic? Study History! LOL "MUCKER"
As for you guys in the Golden State, your CADOJ is definitley a bunch of super anti gun creeps. (Thats as polite as I can be!) I'm glad to hear that a DA sued the Bastards and purportedly won! You gotta be like the Brits were in WWll and NEVER GIVE UP! Eventually this thing will all shake out. Extremes are followed by opposite extremes. That's how you get averages. Unfortunatley, at this time in history, the gun owners in CA. have to cope with some "extremely" stupid laws. Eventually this will change (hopefully in my lifetime!) Someone will step up to the plate and say "enough is enough". Maybe your Grandkids will have it like the "good ol days". Sounds optimistic? Study History! LOL "MUCKER"
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
