[Austringer]

Was at a local car show with one of my military vehicles about two weekends ago and had a great conversation with an older gentleman about the my MV and a bunch of other stuff. During the conversation he mentioned that he had an old browning machine gun that I might be interested in. His dad worked at RIA during the 1920-30s and gentleman was Korean War vet. He said his dad brought it home one day and never took it back. The gentleman, who is in his 70s now, apparently registered during the amnesty, thankfully, as he said he had some paperwork from the 1960s he got from the IRS. Anyway, I was finally able to go by his place today and it is an original M1919 converted to M1919A2 by RIA and retains what appears to be all the original A2 parts (shorter barrel), stirrup, etc. It's papered as a 1919A4 with the correct serial number on the receiver, so that is not an issue. All it takes is a letter to have that corrected.

The big question, what is an original A2 in A2 configuration worth? Would like to give the gentleman something fair, as he basically wanting to give it to me since his kids hate guns and would have it destoryed or give it to some gun buyback program.

Thanks for your time and knowledge,

Aus.

 

[kkkriverrats]

There are to my knowledge no genuine M1919A2's in any museum including the RIA Museum. If it is the real deal it is one of a kind. If its papered its worth its weight in gold.

Very few were produced and most if not almost all were converted to A4's

 

[gulf state gaurd]

Pictures would help tremendously. Would assist in positive ID as well as determining how many of the early features are present. If the real deal it would be a very rare and desirable bird. The 1919a2 is the path that led to the development of the A4.

 

[Lucky#13]

Dang! This may be the discovery of a lifetime in the Browning collectible world. We do have some record of an A2 being in inventory at Springfield Armory at one time, but no documented evidence of its presence still today. Certainly there is not one known in the NFA registry, so if the gun you are looking at is papered as an A4, that's why no one would have known it to be anything else. It should be either N.E. Westinghouse or Colt's manufacture, marked as a BROWNING TANK MACHINE GUN, MODEL OF 1919 and hand stamped A2 following that.

PUHLEEEEZZZ get us some pictures! This thing is priceless if authentic!!!!

Should look like this. Photo credit to Rock Island Arsenal, courtesy of the Rock Island Arsenal Museum, special thanks to Gatekeeper.

 

[amish-bob]

Did you notice that they are using the M3 type pintle in that early tripod?

 

[clm]

Dang! This may be the discovery of a lifetime in the Browning collectible world. We do have some record of an A2 being in inventory at Springfield Armory at one time, but no documented evidence of it's presence still today. Certainly there is not one known in the NFA registry, so if the gun you are looking at is papered as an A4, that's why no one would have known it to be anything else. It should be either N.E. Westinghouse or Colt's manufacture, marked as a BROWNING TANK MACHINE GUN, MODEL OF 1919 and hand stamped A2 following that.

PUHLEEEEZZZ get us some pictures! This thing is priceless if authentic!!!!

Should look like this. Photo credit to Rock Island Arsenal Museum, courtesy of the Rock Island Arsenal Museum, special thanks to Gatekeeper.

OK for all of the know it all's out there

What is the band going around the barrel shroud about 4" from the trunnion

Thanks Craig

 

[nirvana]

Well. Damn. This should be an interesting thread.

 

[toolmanm203]

HOLY COW I just saw this thread and yes please post pictures and keep us updated as this would certainly be the holy grail for us Browning addicts. Russ

 

[kkkriverrats]

OK for all of the know it all's out there

What is the band going around the barrel shroud about 4" from the trunnion

Thanks Craig

It was a sling loop. There is a pic in Dolf I showing an A2 on a hanger pack horse mounted with the leather sling, picture looks circa post 1933 due to the uniform the trooper is wearing.

 

[Colorado1919]

All I can say is WOW!!! what luck!

 

[emmagee1917]

No . IIRC , the band is a stop . I keeps the gun in the correct position as you mount it in the ball swivel of the tank. Kinda like a third hand durring that step.
Chris

 

[GWR1]

Austringer SEZ: ".... Would like to give the gentleman something fair, as he basically wanting to give it to me since his kids hate guns and would have it destoryed (sic) or give it to some gun buyback program ...."

Man! This could get to be an interesting discussion! So many questions and considerations to be made!!! I really want to hear how it plays out.

Carry On!
Gary
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[Rory]

Is is so exciting.

 

[kkkriverrats]

No . IIRC , the band is a stop . I keeps the gun in the correct position as you mount it in the ball swivel of the tank. Kinda like a third hand durring that step.
Chris

That quite possibly could have been a stop on the tank gun it was removed from the drawings in March 1927 its official name was Tank Gun Barrel Jacket Ring




Here's the drawing of the A2 from 1936



In my opinion a complete A2 would have the sling/strap loop Why the RIA picture didn't show it is unknown


The

 

[gulf state gaurd]

It was an accessory

 

[Lucky#13]

Another image, from Rock Island Arsenal, courtesy of the Museum and Gatekeeper.



Note that there is a sling swivel band, right against the trunnion on this gun. The ring forward of the trunnion is left over from the original, 1919 Model, intended for Tank installation in a ball mount. The ring also gives something to grab when removing from the ball mount, and the space between the ring and trunnion is for the early Emergency Tripod mount. In the A2-specific drawing that kkkriverrats posted above, the ring is not shown as it was no longer required. However, all A2 Cavalry Guns were converted 1919 Tank Guns, so unless a new barrel jacket was installed out of necessity, the original Tank Gun jacket would have been retained, including the ring, which was fixed in place by either spot welding or riveting.

On comparing the two pics, both are of the same gun. Odd, but it's the earlier dated pic that features the sling swivel band, which has been removed when the later pic was taken, on the M2 tripod. By that 1937 date, they may have no longer considered this for ground gun use. One sees these guns later on Scout Cars and early tanks, before the A4s were in new production. But the first A4s were, like the A2s before them, being made by converting existing guns in the system.

 

[Abominog]

OK, so who's first to build a clone?

Off topic, that's the first authentic photo I've seen of a 1919 on a 1917a1 tripod.

 

[Lucky#13]

OK, so who's first to build a clone?

Off topic, that's the first authentic photo I've seen of a 1919 on a 1917a1 tripod.

Oops! I cropped that pic to focus on the gun. It is a 1917A1 Cradle, but it's on a pedestal mount for a Half Track, which is actually what the full picture is intended to illustrate.

As to the clone, we are already doing that, lol. Have 30 more WWI receivers in production now, some of which will be 1917s and some 1919A2s. Plus at least one prototype 1918 Aircraft gun.

 

[gulf state gaurd]

You see lots on 1918 tripods in training. Have a bunch of my freinds father mugging for the camera with a A4 on a 1918 mount.

These early ones were using modified 1919 emergency tripods. The first models of the emergency tripod locked around the shroud behind the ring. The modified cavalry ones replaced the complicated locking head assembly with a fairly simple welded up pintle. The one surviving A2 Cavalry tripod that we know where it is (private collection) the tripod head appears to have been cut down from the original drawing specs as well as period pictures. Probably field modified during testing or unit fielding these before being replaced. For as small and lightweight (they really had the infantry in mind when they built these) they are very stable. That said I have never fired a burst off one and conssidering I have had to manhandle 1919s running full out that were not properly bagged....and pushing and sliding a much heavier m2 tripod.

The downside to these is the gun sits too low and acquiring targets when in brush and grass a complaint so they developed the bigger more durable M2

 

[Lucky#13]

This gun was missing the correct Bolt Latch (safety bar) when put on display at SAR, because we had robbed that for a customer's gun and hadn't blued another one in time. But this example features some of GSG's handiwork on it, in the form of certain accessories. This gives you an idea of how the gun looked mounted on the late style Emergency Tripod, as described above.