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Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is without a doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have read regarding the War in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your mind to his essay and give a fair evaluation.

I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts... so when I received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they are. But then I did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a retired Air Force Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall Medical Center in San Antonio. So he is real, is connected to Veterans affairs in California, and these are his thoughts. They are worth reading and thinking about!(the same Google search will direct you to some of his other thought-provoking writings.)
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Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA. A different spin on Iraq war.

This WAR is for REAL! Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losi ng really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start? Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United State is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York Wor ld Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush
1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3 Who were the attackers? In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm )

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing al l of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.

So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions

We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past
18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and submissive to them.

We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and can not help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put
100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.



I will have to continue this on another thread as the software used on this site says it is too long. IMHO its poor software.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
War on terror - Part 2 - very good read

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best wh at I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed
400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.

And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political stand still over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United State, but throughout the world.

We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant' That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back we can defeat anything bad in the world!

We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some e xternal military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserv e it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world

Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!

Please forward this to anyone you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our "leaders" in Congress ought to read it, too. There are those that find fault with our country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks through this, that we must UNITE!
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If you would like to see who this fellow is go to this Air Force web sight and look him up. http://www.af.mil/bios/alpha.asp?alpha=C
 

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it's hard to take anybody with any degree of seriousness, or creditabilty, regardless of what titles they hold, that clumps all muslims in with the terrorist..........that's like me saying just because they are some wackos christians, then all christians are wackos, or support and cheer on the wacko christian groups. not saying that there isn't people out that have that have view, there are too many in my opinion........just like this guy that basically says all muslims go along with the terroists........you can see where this guy is going with the 5th paragraph "Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? Hopefully, but that is really not material." after that it just spirals down to the same idiotic rhetoric I have heard before, clumping everyone in what a handful of nutjobs are doing or want to accomplish, and claims that is what they want, or just go along with it. he just basically is trying to fit his "view" and making some outlandish claims

you may find him "enlightening", but to me, his writings just sounds like the same old usual nutjob take on clumping all people in for what some other do......he only has a more elegant way of putting it.......guess that what comes with a college education, you can write a bigot paper, without sounding like a bigot. it's still the same garbage, only with a flower on the tops of it.


the thing that gets me, is that he writes, we have to give up some of our liberties.........yeah OK, :rolleyes: what is that someone said about giving up liberties for a little security......soon you will have neither
 

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Knowledge IS power

Excellant piece....most people know inherently that the reasons given are the real facts. The liberals,media and others of their ilk are like ostrich's with their heads in the sand. Most women and liberals don't use logic...they work,think on emotion only...not a logical bone in their body. Real people,not liberals,will be able to discern the truth and move in the right direction. Stupid people DIE...it's called "thinning the gene pool". Those who survive will carry on and be stronger.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
slowfire said:
it's hard to take anybody with any degree of seriousness, or creditabilty, regardless of what titles they hold, that clumps all muslims in with the terrorist..........that's like me saying just because they are some wackos christians, then all christians are wackos, or support and cheer on the wacko christian groups. not saying that there isn't people out that have that have view, there are too many in my opinion........just like this guy that basically says all muslims go along with the terroists........you can see where this guy is going with the 5th paragraph "Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? Hopefully, but that is really not material." after that it just spirals down to the same idiotic rhetoric I have heard before, clumping everyone in what a handful of nutjobs are doing or want to accomplish, and claims that is what they want, or just go along with it. he just basically is trying to fit his "view" and making some outlandish claims

you may find him "enlightening", but to me, his writings just sounds like the same old usual nutjob take on clumping all people in for what some other do......he only has a more elegant way of putting it.......guess that what comes with a college education, you can write a bigot paper, without sounding like a bigot. it's still the same garbage, only with a flower on the tops of it.


the thing that gets me, is that he writes, we have to give up some of our liberties.........yeah OK, :rolleyes: what is that someone said about giving up liberties for a little security......soon you will have neither
I did not take what he wrote as meaning we should hate all Muslims. To me it was more like know your enemy.

I have seen more than one representative of the Muslim religion speaking on news shows and they almost to a man admit that probably somewhat more than 50% of there followers subscribe to the general idea that only they are right and all others should be eliminated by any means possible.

I am in general agreement with you about giving up liberties for a little security. I believe he meant we needed to take a more hard line attitude when dealing with those who would destroy us.
 

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I did not take what he wrote as meaning we should hate all Muslims. To me it was more like know your enemy.

oh really? some of this stuff sounds like david duke wrote it:


"And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women,or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world."
for a so called "educated man" he is very stupid, or his hatered for a group, is overwelming ... muslims were the ones who excelled and made important contrubution in medicine, mathamatics, astronomy, agriculture, architecture etc... etc... etc.... that seem pretty significant contrubutions to the world to me.......


"They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?"

I can think of a few other cultures or groups that did that......christians for one, european dynastic wars for another, ...muslims aren't the only one that did that.

he does write good, I will grant you that......but the message is about what you find in any neo-nazi pamphlet.

hagar said:
I have seen more than one representative of the Muslim religion speaking on news shows and they almost to a man admit that probably somewhat more than 50% of there followers subscribe to the general idea that only they are right and all others should be eliminated by any means possible.
and I bet if you take a poll about some guy from a wacko christian group killing a doctor who does abortion, you will probably get a high percentage of christians saying that is OK to do..

I don't recall all these christian leaders coming out and condemming the action of that wacko christian.......the ones that I saw interviewed, just talked about abortion should be outlawed, after a very fast, "tragic comment" but no real condemming the individual, or the group


point is that yes there are muslim terrorist in the world......the problem is people like him clump all muslim in that same group, or go on to attack a entire group of people with bigot comments......the vast majority, and I would say about 99 percent of muslims are just going about their daily lives and scratching out a living like we do......this guy is about as objective, as david duke would be......he just has a title. there is no requirement that in order to be a bigot, you have to live in a trailer, work at a minimum wage job, and be called bubba.
 

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I REALLY DOUGHT THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF CHRISTIANS CONDONE ANY KIND OF VIOLENCE!! (I am not religious,but know what most (true) christians are about).I am sorry, (not really),but I will have to agree with Hagar and the VERY good essay! It may not be politically correct,but the terrorists are NOT P.C. either. I don't know where this stupid term PC came from,but the truth is the truth no matter what the subject matter, but that is for a different RANT!! Remember,the saying if you are not part of the solution,you are a part of the problem. That goes for the muslims as well as liberals and people with their head in the sand like Slowfire.We did not start this MESS, but it will end with either the non muslim world converting to islam or a global holy war!! Go head and tell me I am WRONG!!!rant over (FOR NOW)
 

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Controlling Commerce

When the Caliphates were in full force during the Middle Ages, the Moslems effectively cut off and controlled the trade routes from India and China to Europe. The Europeans got around that and attempted to find an alternative route to the East, and inadvertently discovered the New World.

Hence, we left those towel heads in the dust, literally.

There is no mystery that the Moslems are trying to control Western trade today, even if the strategy is different and enforced with 'terror'. And once again, the China trade is key to the struggle.

(Ironically, early China trade evidenced the importation, or ripping off the Chinese of some key innovations that the Europeans were more than happy to copy, without compensation to the Chinese (Gunpowder, compass, paper, silk production, etc.) - any mystery why the Chinese are doing this to us today? How ironic!

Speaking of China: China has a very significant Moslem population.

Like Japan and Germany in the past, China has come of age on the world arena and wants to flex it's muscle and be a respected world power. So the U.S. engages China on that level and more or less tells China: "OK - then do something about North Korea". China does nothing short of a few token communiques that have no effect. I had to laugh when I read some Western accounts that the Chinese were powerless at stopping North Korea. That is typically what a liberal Westerner would assume and write. Do the Chinese in fact have no power to stop North Korea from launching those missles? Or, do the Chinese actually encourage it? What China wants is total domination and control of the Pacific. They do not want the U.S. in 'their territory', especially to impede the invasion of Taiwan, or their future attack on Japan (old payback for the 1937 invasion). Right now the Chinese are taking a back seat, collecting U.S. Dollars, importing Western Technology, and waiting for America to be so deeply involved with the war on terror. Perhaps within the next five to ten years will the Chinese Army have the ability to go ahead and take Taiwan. (Perhaps the People's Republic of China's PLA Information Tech division will also go forward and 'clone' the identity of every adult American and wreck our economy by making fraudulent credit card accounts and destroying our banking system in the process.) Research the Chinese military concept of "Assassins Mace" weapons.

The European race in the Middle Ages to find an alternative trade route to the East is now replaced by the space race today. China does not want to see the United States dominating the moon or beyond. Perhaps this is the healthiest manifestation of this cultural competition to get us off our duffs. Before long humanity in the next 500 years, if it suceeds, will have more than one home in the Universe. (Supplants the 1492 Columbus expeditions, then and now it helps a crowded society lets off a little steam) Until then, support AF 2020.

This is yet another culture that has a long term memory and very patient. They do not collectively forget, and Americans should also start thinking for the long term. Short term profit and let the next generation inherit my problem is one of the ills that can do us in.)

The sooner the U.S. Circumvents liberals and anti Americans, the better. If George Bush wants to make the statement that the legacy on the war on terror will include planting the American flag permanently on this planet, the people must have the same intent, and need long term vision and strategic planning to make that happen.
 

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RANT back on!!One thing I do not agree with Dr. CHONG, is that the war in Iraq is about terrorism!! First it was about weapons of mass destruction (never found any,if there had been, Sadam could have moved them) If he did not have any WMD's why didn't he just tell the inspectors to come right on in and inspect to their hearts desire, or move them and then tell them that???? THEN!!, it was terrorism, and there is a whole LOT more countries that are suporting terrorism a LOT more more than Iraq ever did and we are not attacking THEM!!! So why are we there you might ask. I think Bush's bosses at the TOP, told him that sadam is not going along with the NEW world order, so he has to be eliminated! So Iraq, I believe, has nothing to do with terrorism!! Didn't know that Bush had bosses?? It sure isn't you or I!! Any idea whom they may be??GUESS?? later,dellque
 

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Sometimes,I think that religion is the bane of humanity. It has caused as much human suffering as all the wars and diseases through the ages. All we need to live by is to treat others as you would like to be treated.Unless you are a masochist!! LOL
 

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Interesting read, like most Americans I choose to come to my own agreement or disagreement on what was stated.

In my opinion, I can't group all Muslims together, much like 75 years ago all Blacks were grouped together or before that, the Indians that lived in this great country before us. Yes, grouping has been done in this country for many years, and tragicly it has been used as much in the negative way as the positive grouping that all Americans recieve with our rights, standard of living etc.

As far as killing in the name of God, I am appaled that some of the Muslims would use God as the bases for the killing. BUT then some of the Christians (I count myself as one) are just as bad - yes I said it - look at norhtern Ireland for our most recent example - Prodestants and Cathlics killing each other in the name of <gasp> the SAME GOD ! Political is all it was, and if you trully look back to what started it, it was because of the changes inthe "official" state religion under British kings. Political killing should never be done in the name of God !

A bit OT - BUT it brings home the point that possible not all Muslims are bad .. and possibly that not all Christians are good ! or visa-versa !

BTW - this American also remembers that the war in Iraq was sold as protecting americans againt WMD's, not what it morphed into. This American also remembers that America supported Saddam at one time - and that he was equally ruthless then - you have to ask - what were we thinking?

David
 

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Discussion Starter #12
dellque said:
RANT back on!!One thing I do not agree with Dr. CHONG, is that the war in Iraq is about terrorism!! First it was about weapons of mass destruction (never found any,if there had been, Sadam could have moved them) If he did not have any WMD's why didn't he just tell the inspectors to come right on in and inspect to their hearts desire, or move them and then tell them that???? THEN!!, it was terrorism, and there is a whole LOT more countries that are suporting terrorism a LOT more more than Iraq ever did and we are not attacking THEM!!! So why are we there you might ask. I think Bush's bosses at the TOP, told him that sadam is not going along with the NEW world order, so he has to be eliminated! So Iraq, I believe, has nothing to do with terrorism!! Didn't know that Bush had bosses?? It sure isn't you or I!! Any idea whom they may be??GUESS?? later,dellque
One possibility for the war in Iraq would be to create a very serious burr under the saddle of the terrorist movement. If some type of semi democracy were to be successful in that area I can understand how it might be useful to the western world.

Another reason might be because he didn't like the way his father basically got screwed on the outcome of the Gulf War. This would not necessarily be a good reason to go to war but very understandable in the human race.

These are only hypothetical possibilities.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
dmanlyr said:
Interesting read, like most Americans I choose to come to my own agreement or disagreement on what was stated.

In my opinion, I can't group all Muslims together, much like 75 years ago all Blacks were grouped together or before that, the Indians that lived in this great country before us. Yes, grouping has been done in this country for many years, and tragicly it has been used as much in the negative way as the positive grouping that all Americans recieve with our rights, standard of living etc.

As far as killing in the name of God, I am appaled that some of the Muslims would use God as the bases for the killing. BUT then some of the Christians (I count myself as one) are just as bad - yes I said it - look at norhtern Ireland for our most recent example - Prodestants and Cathlics killing each other in the name of <gasp> the SAME GOD ! Political is all it was, and if you trully look back to what started it, it was because of the changes inthe "official" state religion under British kings. Political killing should never be done in the name of God !

A bit OT - BUT it brings home the point that possible not all Muslims are bad .. and possibly that not all Christians are good ! or visa-versa !

BTW - this American also remembers that the war in Iraq was sold as protecting americans againt WMD's, not what it morphed into. This American also remembers that America supported Saddam at one time - and that he was equally ruthless then - you have to ask - what were we thinking?

David

Of course govermental relationships with any country or head of state are by nature political inspired. It is truely regrettable that many times it turns out to be founded on the (possibily errorunious) assumption that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
 
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