[Twisted]

For you old guys, when did you get your first 1919. 0r 1917?
I came across a old May 10,1985 issue of the SHOTGUN NEWS (never went into the trash 23 years ago)and went thru it page for page (250pgs )looking for what the prices for the parts I'm paying a fortune for now , might have been. Not a word was mentioned in the Sarco 10 page ad or anyone elses about 1919's Thompsons yes.

I could just die.....(AD)

.Direct from Rock Island Armory

Full auto M- 60MG $1995 with signed FFL Now those were the days MAREMONT M-60E3 lightweights $3995

 

[slowfire]

yeah, everything looks "cheap" if you go by todays dollars..........but 2K was a lot of money back then, 4K was half what a new car was selling for.......think about that

 

[Pvt.Joker]

Well, I bought my first- and only- machine gun back in 1986, 5 days before they changed the law on making new ones, for $875 plus the $200 tax stamp. And sitting in the front of the shop was a full auto Maremont M-60 that I *could* have bought for $2,800. Coulda, woulda, shoulda...

But in perspective; back then a papered machine gun only went for about 50% more than a semi-auto version of the same firearm, because you could simply make another one (as long as you paid your tax stamp and got your papers in order). They didn't skyrocket in price or demand until a while AFTER the ban, and honestly, IF the ban ever goes to court and gets overturned, they will most likely rapidly fall right back down there once again. They ARE fun, but they are also expensive to feed, and after an initial frenzy of applications to build the parts kits (and to rebuild the semi-conversions already done) left out there, I would imagine that they would probably go back to what they were back then. For the VAST majority of their owners, fun toys to take out and blast with once in a while, and then hang out at home in the safe.

Heck, with what ammo costs these days, I'm almost surprised they haven't ALREADY dropped the ban BEFORE it goes to court and gets overturned and in the process drags down other things like the GCA and the NFA with it. The court already set precedent that total bans are unconstitutional, and while that case did not address machine guns in its ruling, it certainly left the door open to go back once the court gets another conservative or two on the bench. You'd think the Antis would have enough sense to drop back and circle the wagons around what they *might* get to keep. But then again, if common sense was applicable to their reasoning, they wouldn't be after guns in the first place; they'd be after violent criminals who misuse guns.

No, the price of the FA toys are still high for now, but from what I've been watching, they are not moving anywhere near as fast as they were a year or two ago. And that leads me to believe that a lot of other people are also starting to see them as a very expensive game of musical chairs, and nobody wants to be caught with THEIR money tied up in them if and when the ban goes away and their "investment" follows the housing bubble, the tech stock bubble, etc. The "machine gun bubble"? Maybe, maybe not. But again, you'd think the Antis would WANT the prices to tumble, as they might see it as interest in them declining after an initial spike in making new ones.

 

[Twisted]

Guns are a great investment

Yah but what is the M-60 going for today $60 K thats 30X I remenber I wanted at time a Porshe Carrera w'/flared fenderwells I think it was $40K I don;t think you could get 30X for a ($1,2 mil) used car

 

[Pvt.Joker]

Well, a full auto M-60 is LISTING for around $60K, perhaps, but is it SELLING at that price? That's the real issue. Just like the housing market; "but I can't sell it for less because I have more than that in it" still doesn't mean that someone else is going to put THEIR money into it instead. Oh sure; SOME people will, but how many and how long will it take to find that buyer in this economy?

Funny about the car thing, though. That $43K Porsche back in 1986 is probably about a $5K-$10K used car nowadays. But if you had bought an original 1966 Shleby Cobra as a used car back then (and for that kind of money in 1986, you could have gotten a nice 427 Cobra) then THAT car might well sell for that 30X ROI. But again, ONLY if you can find a buyer. And the more the economy tanks, the harder it will become to find buyers for those big ticket items- ESPECIALLY those who will pay full asking price, because MOST people who can make that kind of money to be able to afford such items are also savvy enough to wait until they find them being sold by others who are desperate and will discount the price to get quick cash. It sucks, and it is profiteering off the misfortune of others, granted. But in the LAST Great Depression, there WERE a number of people who became VERY wealthy, by having the cash to snatch up such deals and be able to afford to hold them until the economy recovered. Then THEY sold them at their true worth, and made a fortune in the process.

 

[Twisted]

In the same issue AMMO prices

We all scream about ammo prices

Northeast Gun Supply PMC (1985) WHOLE SALE PRICES WITH SHIPPING
9mm luger 150.60 cs 15.63 cents
45 acp 183.40 cs or 18.34cents rds
223 military 144.oo @1000
308 269 00 @1000

TODAYS WALMART

9MM WHITE BOX @100 RDS 18.57 18.57c SHIPPED & DELIVERED
45 ACP $27.XX 28C " "

ALL IN ALL AMMO HASN'T CHANGED REALLY THAT MUCH IN 23 YEARS

 

[hagar]

I think anyone who is waiting for the 86mg ban to be over turned is wasting there time. Just like the most recent SCOTUS decision a couple of months ago didn't accomplish a thing for the public. DC is still not issuing permits and they won't in the future. They just replaced the old law with new ones that still block the way.

I think we all know the federal government is not going to arrest the DC chief of police, district attorney, mayor and the whole community council. That is what should happen but it will not.

 

[GWR1]

My first new Volkswagen cost $1995 in1968.

When in March of 1986 (just barely pre-May 19, '86) I bought my first f/a, a Sten Mk II (sub) machingun gun parts set for $35, the total for building it -- counting the Dremel tool and farming out a bit a welding -- cost just shy of $100, plus the tax stamp of course. I bought the parts set in Okeechobee at a gunshow, because the guy told me about the new law that was about to become final -- I figured that if the Gummit didn't want me to have one that there MUST be a reason I NEEDED it!) One of these days I'll get around to finishing it, as it really would look better parked and painted. "Works great, cheaper ammo!"

Some of the $37,000 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT (425 horsepower, 6.1-liter Hemi V-8, six-speed stick-shift, all of which have been spoken for -- "supply and demand") are already being advertised for twice that now! I don't see prices of MG's going down more than the percentage of than, say, the price of gold or real estate, for example. A $ 5 Million mansion is still unaffordable to me, no matter how "bad" the real estate market is).

Carry On!
Gary
><>

 

[frazer42]

1985

In 1985 we bought an MG42 for $1800, an MP44 for $1000, and a Florida Sten for $300. The guy just wanted something different.

 

[Leggers]

Thank the family!

My father-in-law got me into hunting and rifles, which began my love for the shooting sports. My uncle got me into machine guns tho, and I borrowed a book from him that he bought in 81 when he was making some mg purchaces.

wow. look at those prices!

 

[blackrifles]

First time shooting F/A? Before I was a teenager, that would be early 80's, neighbors had shot them (war trophies and F1ed) for yrs and I loved to hear it, instead of running away I walked toward the sound of MG fire, they welcomed visitors. I can also remember shooting LIVE ammo through a M-16 and M-60 around 1984, NG used to have "open house", and if you knew someone (and hung around before dark) you got to shoot more than blanks, even arty sims, boy do I miss those days.

1984-85, rail roaders and old businessmen went part-time C-2/C-3 and I shot MGs practically 2 Saturdays a month, literally had a working library of guns to examine and fire, fix what was broken because a lot of those old men couldn't see up close, you had to EARN that ammo. I can remember pulling NEW MGs out of the box and adding price tags, placing them on the shelves and display cases, the price of an MG was slightly higher than it's semi-auto counterpart, and pretty much stayed that way until around 1990, very few people wanted the hassles.


After May 1986, many people thought MGs were illegal, the neighbors were getting (friendly) LE visits every time they fired them, our small community had a bunch of big city folk moving in, THEY didn't like MG fire and were screaming for it to cease, so the hard-core MGers simply moved off to remote areas.

Gone was the weekend sounds of "MG music" so we'd go visit the few remaining C-2/C-3s until early 90's, Clinton gang forced the dozen out, by 1997 only two remained in the county, to my knowledge, now there's only ONE and he's just a C-3, he would more than welcome a C-2 moving here, said he'd keep one real busy.

 

[Armorer]

In the old days buying a machine gun meant buying a DEWAT machinegun. Many of these 1960 era DEWATS have since been rewated legally. A friend of mine has done that with several. Of course all were legally registered as DEWATs before being restored and the $200.00 tax (and background checks)had to be paid before "manufacturing a machine gun". Funny the guns had already been manufactured and registered but he needed a permit to manufacture them.

Back in about 1961 I bought a Lewis gun for $29.95 (it cost about $10.00 to ship it) and a little while later a Sten for $25.00. You could by a Chauchat for less than $20.00. A friend of mine bought a mint M1 Thompson for $99.95. These were registered DEWAT guns but in those days there was no background checks, fingerprints or police checks and I don't even think I was 21 at the time. Back then you could not own an operational machine gun in my state but you can now.

Now those were 1960's dollars. Back when a young kid was lucky to make $1.25 per hour and most people were lucky to earn $5.00 per hour. A good big American car cost about $3000.00 and a VW was about $1,500.00. As I recall gas was about $0.25 per galon.

Back then you probably could have rewated a machine gun but the $200.00 tax was more than the cost of most machine guns that were available at the time. Back then you could buy a live Thompson for $200.00 from Numrich.

 

[ordnance]

Well, I guess I qualify as a crusty old guy so here are my comments. My first NFA of any type was a PIAT purchased in 1966 or 1967. It cost $6.00 to buy and $12 to ship via Railway Express. Of course, it really wasn't NFA yet as destructive devices didn't need to be registered until the 1968 Amnesty came along. I was too young so we registered the PIAT in my dad's name.

More to the point of the original question, my first Browning machine gun, a 1919A4, came in early 1977. I really couldn't afford a C&R gun at the time which might cost $1000 or $1200, and hadn't seen any offered in my area anyway. At the time, there were only a few side plate manufacturers, the best of which was Chuck Hudak of Inland Arms in Austin, TX. He would sell whole guns and for a while offered a stripped registered receiver option for about $660, if I recall correctly. It was still too much for my budget but he agreed to do some trading to help get me into a gun.

In those days, a couple of ship scrappers were busy in the Portland, OR area wrecking out surplus WWII ships. I used to haunt those yards and picked up as much gun scrap as I could afford, often picking up M2 tripods and new in the grease belt loaders for as little as $5 or $10 each. So I shipped Chuck as big a pile of Browning parts and accessories as I could afford to send, and a couple hundred dollars, and he supplied the missing parts and basic receiver to build me a gun.

The best part was his appreciation of my interest in the history of the 1919 and the fact that I wanted a specific look. While most of his customers wanted the latest and greatest versions of the parts, I wanted a proper "1942ish" looking gun. So he built one with the 3-pc tapered muzzle bearing, non-adjustable front sight, aluminum pistol grip, bolt hold open bar, top cover with riveted rear block, bright metal internals, etc. Pretty much all the early features were necessary to me so I was pretty retro before the word was even coined. I finally found a C&R Saginaw 1919A4 dewat locally and bought it in 1984 for about $550. It was the gun I'd been searching for 10 years earlier but couldn't find. The 1917A1 came along in 1997. Of course, I still have all of them today.

 

[Shattered]

Now those were 1960's dollars. Back when a young kid was lucky to make $1.25 per hour and most people were lucky to earn $5.00 per hour.

Huh... $5 an hour in the 60's? A GM/UAW auto worker only made $4.12 an hour in 1973, one of the highest paid blue collar jobs of the era.

 

[emmagee1917]

Not consistant increases....

I was allowed to fire a friend's '28 Thompson in about 84. Soon had a M-16, M-60 , M-2 carbine , And a Numrich Thompson. Then the Ban came in '86. Everything doubled inside of a year. A 1000-1200 M1919 went to 2500. But then supply caught back up with demand via the ton of RSPs available. These lasted another 16 years or so , then ran out around 1999 or 2000. I bought one 1919 FA in the late 80s for 2500 and another around 1999 for 2850 , only 350 increase over 10+ years. Also picked up my M2HB then for 6000 , which I had always wanted from when I was a kid in the early 60s.
Anyway , I knew the presence of NIB FA 1919's was keeping the price of all the other MGs depressed , but that once they were gone the prices would skyrocket. Well , I was sort -of right , but the increase over the last 8 years has surprised us all , and I think the prices just got too high, to fast. We have seen a stablization or slight drop in prices for the last few years , but I believe inflation will catch up and we will see a steady increase afterwards.
I know that they have priced themselves too high for most , me included. I'll not be adding any to my collection any time soon. But by the same token, I will not be selling any because I would not be able to replace them. Chris

 

[Twisted]

All these stories down to memory lane are great.

Now to get to my real point. In what year, did 1919 kits issy/U.S. become available to build on;to start the belt feed hobby. Where did you get it and how much did it cost you?

 

[Armorer]

Huh... $5 an hour in the 60's? A GM/UAW auto worker only made $4.12 an hour in 1973, one of the highest paid blue collar jobs of the era.

You will notice I said "lucky to earn $5.00 an hour". I worked my way through college at a job that started out at $1.50 an hour and went up over a period of 5 years to $2.00 an hour. My first full time job paid about $3.00 an hour and that was in 1970. I do recall in the 60's hearing that some teamsters were getting $10.00 an hour and I couldn't believe it. That would be like earning $100.00 or more an hour today.

 

[TiredIron]

I too remember working at a Phillips 66 Company Service Station in 1968-69 making $3.00 an hour....16-17yrs old and still living at home. Considering what I made and the value of the Dollar, this was one of the richest times of my life. I bought my first NFA weapon in 76, a MAC10/45 for $200, bought just to see if it was true that you could legally own machine guns. Once I realized how everything worked I bought others as I could afford them, which wasn't too often. Other prices I remember.......

Gas was .249 a gallon...if I forgot to ask you if you wanted your car vacumed
or didn't clean your windshield your tank of gas was on me...that hurt.

My parents bought a brand new 2800sqft home for $24,900, Those rich kids in Cherry Hills lived in those $50,000 mansions.

I bought a 18 month old L88 Corvette Two-Top Roadster for $2600.00 they were $4800 new....a Cadillac was about $5000-5500.00. Like someone said a
new VW Beetle was $1850-1950. A new Harley Davidson Electra-Glide was about $1950.00

Greg Satre of Denver Bullets bought two pallets of Powder Springs MAC10's from their Bankrupcy Auction for $35.00 a peice....ARRrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh

Ahhhhhh the old days.
TiredIron

 

[blackrifles]

A friend of mine was at that bankruptcy auction, for awhile Greg thought it was $35 per MAC, then was told it was per PALLET!

 

[TiredIron]

I'll have to run that one by Greg tomorrow.....I always thought it was $35.00 a MAC.....I'll really have a stomach ache if it was per pallet.
TiredIron