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PhD in Over-Engineering
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Dennis, I just sent you an e-mail. Let me know if I can help.

Dennis,

There has been semi-auto Vic plates on GB recently. These are suppose to be the same standard as Halo.
So you are saying someone is copying the Halo plates? Wouldn't be the first time, but that's not playing nice. Mfgs should do their own development work rather than stealing from other people. Halo spent a LOT of time with Lonnie, back and forth with the hardware, to get that design developed. For someone else to shamelessly copy that is just unethical.
 

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Dennis, I just sent you an e-mail. Let me know if I can help.



So you are saying someone is copying the Halo plates? Wouldn't be the first time, but that's not playing nice. Mfgs should do their own development work rather than stealing from other people. Halo spent a LOT of time with Lonnie, back and forth with the hardware, to get that design developed. For someone else to shamelessly copy that is just unethical.
The gentleman who is selling them is also a Forum member. The ones he listed on GB (Listing # 491017163) are for 70% plates and he can at additional cost make them 100% plates. According to other forum members he does real nice builds and appears to be a stand up kind of guy. I do not know if his are the same pattern as the Halo plates and he does not compare them to Halo plates on the auction. Just posting this as additional information.
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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The gentleman who is selling them is also a Forum member. The ones he listed on GB (Listing # 491017163) are for 70% plates and he can at additional cost make them 100% plates. According to other forum members he does real nice builds and appears to be a stand up kind of guy. I do not know if his are the same pattern as the Halo plates and he does not compare them to Halo plates on the auction. Just posting this as additional information.
I had already looked before you posted, redroth. Found that with a search, and I didn't know before junking's post that someone was selling such plates. I do know who the seller is, from his posts and comments from customers here. But he actually does show a 100% plate for comparison on his auction picture, and mentions that it is a Halo plate. I understand that he does very good work and is probably a very decent guy. But as one who has had my own stuff copied and had others make money off of that, it's a sensitive issue for me. It's just something I would not do.
 
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I had already looked before you posted, redroth. Found that with a search, and I didn't know before junking's post that someone was selling such plates. I do know who the seller is, from his posts and comments from customers here. But he actually does show a 100% plate for comparison on his auction picture, and mentions that it is a Halo plate. I understand that he does very good work and is probably a very decent guy. But as one who has had my own stuff copied and had others make money off of that, it's a sensitive issue for me. It's just something I would not do.
Hi Lucky#13, I had seen the plates advertised for quite a while now but did not notice a Halo plate was also pictured. I respect how sensitive you are about the copying issue and agree with you that copying for commercial purposes is bad form and something I personally would not do. I also have to say (having one my self) that the Halo Vickers plates are superb.
 

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Sadly this is common in our cottage industry.

Simply put, it does not make financial sense to patent a design, because that will eat up so much of the possible profit from the low volume production. What that means is the next time "we" want a low-volume design, the designer will think twice, and more than likely nothing gets made for "us".

Don't forget the devil is in the details. Warping, machine marks, tolerances, etc. Copies are rarely as good as the original.
 

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Sadly this is common in our cottage industry.

Simply put, it does not make financial sense to patent a design, because that will eat up so much of the possible profit from the low volume production. What that means is the next time "we" want a low-volume design, the designer will think twice, and more than likely nothing gets made for "us".

Don't forget the devil is in the details. Warping, machine marks, tolerances, etc. Copies are rarely as good as the original.

This makes sense. I am glad and happy mine was a 100% HALO plate, nothing finer IMHO.
CaptMax
 

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wow, didn't realize I would be stirring the pot. Certainly not my intention.

I imagine that the vendor making these did so from lack of availability of parts he needed to do the build service he offers. I believe Halo only does occasional runs of their excellent plates. If you don't catch one of those builds, you may be waiting a while for one. Lonnie's parts have been almost impossible to get. This seems to leave a void in the market for others to fill demand. The guy building the plates and offering them on GB does nice work and seems to be an upstanding guy, provides an excellent product, and gives back a lot on various forums to help builders with tutorials.

I certainly understand this is a sensitive issue and can understand both sides of this situation. I personally like to shop with the person who came up with the idea to reward them for their contribution, however, if the parts aren't available, it leaves one to either make them their self or buy from a vendor who offers the product at the time.

My 2 cents.
 

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wow, didn't realize I would be stirring the pot. Certainly not my intention.

I imagine that the vendor making these did so from lack of availability of parts he needed to do the build service he offers. I believe Halo only does occasional runs of their excellent plates. If you don't catch one of those builds, you may be waiting a while for one. Lonnie's parts have been almost impossible to get. This seems to leave a void in the market for others to fill demand. The guy building the plates and offering them on GB does nice work and seems to be an upstanding guy, provides an excellent product, and gives back a lot on various forums to help builders with tutorials.

I certainly understand this is a sensitive issue and can understand both sides of this situation. I personally like to shop with the person who came up with the idea to reward them for their contribution, however, if the parts aren't available, it leaves one to either make them their self or buy from a vendor who offers the product at the time.

My 2 cents.[/Quote\] in my atf approval letter for the vickers semi conversion lon ingrahm isn't the one who designed it! A guy from Nevada designed the semi conversion & it was copied by you know who in Ohio! Just my .02 cents! Fwiw!
 

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Halo is the way to go. I have met and spoken with the GB seller and he is building my Vickers now. A nice fellow that does really nice work. I'm pretty sure these are left overs from his current Vickers build. He was offering side plates and a parts kit for the lock conversion. I already had a Halo side plate (they were kind enough to SN it to match my parts set which didn't have to do and for which they earned my undying loyalty) and I'm sure I'm not the only one that already had a Halo plate. If I didn't have one, I still would have gone with a Halo - I used them on my first 1919a4 and their side plate was perfect in every way. The only drawback, and it is a minor one if you have patience, is - at least with the Vicker's side plate - they don't make them to sit around on a shelf waiting for orders, which is understandable. You have to catch one during a run or from a past run that somebody bought and hasn't used. As good as the GB side plates may be, I have never heard anyone say a bad word about a HALO side plate and based on my past experience, you'll never hear a bad word out of me. The fact that Dennis is looking for HALO's says a lot. He knows what he's doing, is very respected for his work, and he specified HALO in his post. I don't think the GB seller has unethical intent, I think he was trying to be a one-stop service for builds, has a few side plated left over, and it trying to get his money out of left over plates. From my conversations with him, he's a builder not a side plate manufacturer; any parts he sells are sold to facilitate his builds, and he doesn't require you use his stuff. Just my .02.
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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junking, it was I who pushed this thread in this direction, you just passed on information to be helpful. Because I am a tenant and friend with Mike at Halo, and with my own experience with vendors copying my work and selling it, I tend to get a little touchy. The Vickers plates are done in runs, not like 1919 plates which can be done one or two at a time. The difference is that a minimum qty has to be in demand and that takes a while. It's a more complex plate in some ways, the material is a different size, etc. A lot of elements come in to play. For every Vickers plate sold, there are probably 100 1919 plates out the door. So there are times when none are available. Now I understand the fellow who builds down in CA has his own business to run. He has built on Halo plates, apparently. My only wish is that he had contacted Halo first, rather than just copy. I am not trying to bag on the guy. But his alternative was to ask Halo for a run so he would have his own inventory, hitchhike on one of the runs done every 8-12 months in the past couple of years, or at least offer something more than just reverse engineering a product another company had many hours of development costs in. Those costs took a long time to recoup.

I don't know who's name is on the approval letter, but those generally have little reference to the actual specs of things like denial islands, rather just a general description. Developing this plate involved a lot of changes, a lot of machine time and a lot of overnight shipping bills as the plate or plates went back and forth. Some guys get an approval who have no interest in the marketing. I assume Lonnie had some arrangement to use the design. In fact I suspect that it's Gordie K's name on the letter, as he was also active with Lonnie in this, as well as helping other builders along the way. But primarily it was Lonnie's project to get off the ground, and Halo was the partner on the plates. As I said, it is not the first example of someone copying the Halo Vickers plate. I just get a little testy about these things, that's all.

Bob- you slipped in while I was "composing." But thanks for your thoughtful post.

Meanwhile, I think I have taken care of the original purpose of this thread, which was to help out Dennis. That being said, I'm through causing trouble, lol.
 

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Returning to the topic of this thread. Dennis assembled a Vickers for me using a Halo rsp. It is a piece of art and the favorite of the 3 Vickers I have.
 

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Curtis Debord's name is on the Vickers letter. In the way-back-when, Lonnie said he got a look inside one (nobody was making them at the time) and that plus the letter (surprisingly detailed) and probably a lot of effort got his parts going.

Mr. Curtis Debord
American Arms Delta
1469 Greg Street
Sparks, Nevada 89431

Dear Mr. Debord:

This refers to the semiautomatic firearm that was received in this office on February 1, 1999, for classification.,

Examination of the submitted sample, serial number AM0001, indicates that it is a semiautomatic firearm, in caliber .303 British, that is based on the design of the Vickers machinegun. The receiver has been originally designed and manufactured to permit only semiautomatic fire.

The right side plate has been manufactured with two integral steel rails that protrude from the inside of the plate, into the receiver cavity. These rails begin at the rear of the trunion and extend approximately 7 7/8 inches toward the rear of the side plate. The upper rail is approximately 7/16 inch in height, and the lower rail is approximately 1/4 inch in height. The rails protrude approximately .069 inches in to the receiver cavity. The purpose of the rails is to prevent the installation of standard Vickers machinegun recoil plates. The opening for the bolt block in the recoil plates have also been modified to prevent the installation of a standard Vickers machinegun bolt block.

A steel plate approximately 1 21/32 inches in length and approximately 3/16 inch in thickness is pinned and welded to each side plate in the area of the top cover hinge. This plate contains a sliding firing linkage. This plate prevents a standard Vickers machinegun bolt block assembly from being installed into the weapon

A Vickers machinegun bolt block assembly has been redesigned by machining away an area approximately 1 5/8 inches in length by 3/8 inch deep from the front upper area of the bolt block. The bolt slide face has also been reduced in height by approximately 1/4 inch. A pivoting and sliding sear plate has been attached to the sear and is located in the described machined away area of the bolt block. This sear plate is designed to slide under the plate welded between the side
plates and tilt upwards to engage the sear linkage. The lugs on the bottom of the bolt block have been reshaped to make them compatible with the altered recoil plates.

The redesigned mechanism incorporates a positive disconnector that prevents the weapon from firing more than one shot for each function of the trigger. Additionally, standard Vickers machinegun, firing pins, sears and firing pin springs are not compatible with the redesigned weapon.

You also indicated that the side plates will be welded to the trunion in production versions of the weapon. Additionally, the bottom plate will be welded to each side plate.

Based on the above examination, the sample as submitted is classified as a firearm as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, section 921(A)(3). Please be advised that this determination is based on a firearm using a newly designed and manufactured right side plate in the above described configuration. If the design, dimensions, method or construction, materials used or configuration are changed, this classification is subject to review.
 

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PhD in Over-Engineering
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Curtis Debord's name is on the Vickers letter. In the way-back-when, Lonnie said he got a look inside one (nobody was making them at the time) and that plus the letter (surprisingly detailed) and probably a lot of effort got his parts going.
Huh! I know Curtis used to sell semi Vickers, along with the 1919s, etc. But I assumed it was a different design that Lonnie was working off of. I don't have a Vickers kit so I've not delved into the details, just seen the plates come out of the Halo side of the shop a few times. But Curtis is more than familiar with our shops and product up here, as we have done some work for him and I see him two or three times a year. Well, it's a small world. Thanks for the info.
 

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Huh! I know Curtis used to sell semi Vickers, along with the 1919s, etc. But I assumed it was a different design that Lonnie was working off of. I don't have a Vickers kit so I've not delved into the details, just seen the plates come out of the Halo side of the shop a few times. But Curtis is more than familiar with our shops and product up here, as we have done some work for him and I see him two or three times a year. Well, it's a small world. Thanks for the info.
Curtis commercialized the semi-automatic Vickers. US Ordnance Reno commercially produced the first semi-automatic gun about 1999. Due to government orders for M60 series machine guns and spare parts, US Ordnance's Vickers production was suspended. I spoke with them about the date sales were suspended. Others began to fill the void using Curtis' approval letter. Here's the link to a drawing of the semi RSP dating from 2004 http://www.vickersmg.com/images/Vickers_SA_RSP_small.PNG that follows the letter in detail. Lonnie was the most successful. He told me he had the opportunity to look at one of Curtis' guns (it might have been one Dolf bought) and recreated the design from memory. Lonnie might have also had access to the above RSP drawing.
 
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