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Who actualy produced 1919a4 with slotted shrouds

6.2K views 22 replies 13 participants last post by  brassmagnet  
#1 ·
I have not seen a ww2 picture of a 1919a4 with a slotted barrel shroud in use.

Which original manufacturers actually started production with the long slots on the barrel shroud? I assume SG never did it but Buffalo Arms made a4's for the British before we joined the war. I have to wonder if they made any with the early shroud.

Any thoughts?
 
#4 ·
From the drawings I have seen the first A4 jacket with holes C45950 has an original date of Jan 18, 1936 however the switch from slots to holes was approved in an Ordnance Technical Committee meeting Nov 10, 1938 where the design change was approved. These committee meeting minutes indicate that testing had already occurred and the holes were a better deal i.e. easier to fabricate, jacket with holes was stronger etc.


The R&D was likely done at RIA as this was the Ordnance facility in charge of ground type Cal..30 BMG's at this time . The original Notes on the M1919A4 were published in March, 1937 and modified in March 1938 both both documents produced by RIA show the A4 slotted jacket as does the 1941 SNL.

Ordnance switched the drawing contents around and C45950 (holes) became C62503 (slots) 0n September 6, 1939. This swicheroo saved ordnance from reprinting all the M1919A4 pubs with the old drawing/part/stock numbers.

The Drawing number stayed the same the parts changed.

RIA rebuilt excess M1917 WC's left over from WWI all the M1919A2's and whatever else was lying around into M1919A4's. There are likely prewar pics and maybe a very few early WWII pics of slotted jackets.

New production/purpose built under US Ordnance supervision M1919A4's likely never had slotted barrels no matter who built the weapon but since the jackets can be switched around there might be an odd-ball out there somewhere.
 
#6 ·
So it looks likely that we would only see pre-war RIA rebuilt guns as slotted barrel a4 models either as over stamped 1917 or 1919a2 models. This of course would exclude any one offs that may have appeared.
That's my best guess, based on what I have seen, maybe someone has some other info that needs to be considered.

There could be a new production A4 with a slotted jacket in the wood pile but there can't be very many.

You can check out this link for jacket particulars

http://browningmgs.com/Info/Barrels.htm
 
#7 ·
Been gone all day, so I am late to the party. However I concur 100% with kkkriverrats. The first production 1919A4s did not come about until April of 1941, from Saginaw Steering Gear. Both RIA and Buffalo Arms got into production after that.

Steve points out that the current repros are advertised as "Colt" repros. That is not inaccurate, the only caveat being that Colt was not the only one producing guns with the slotted jacket. Westinghouse, Marlin-Rockwell as well as Springfield Armory would have made them. Here is where the confusion lies. The slotted shroud first appeared on the 1918 Aircraft gun, and shorter versions on the 1919 Tank gun and its 1919A2 sibling. The A4 went to paper about 1936, so the slotted shroud was still the standard. All A4s- with perhaps rare exceptions- were converted as stated. Sure, a few new receivers may have been built during development, but no "production" of any kind took place until 1941. We don't know how many "conversion" A4s existed before Saginaw got in gear (sorry!). It may have been hundreds, it may have been thousands. We do have information, though, that the conversion program at RIA continued right through WWII.

Oh, as to Steve's question about the company making slotted jackets making some with holes... Well, they have made A6 jackets. I think there is just no demand for new made A4 jackets with holes, since there are plenty available surplus in good condition, and for cheaper than they can be made.
 
#9 ·
Demand

I demand a perfectly straight machinist scale and own one, if 1919A4 barrel shroud is so easy to get then why am I receiving so many PM's wanting one. I have 27, 3 are from OOW, they all need to be staightened. The sloted repro. I have will not pass the machinists scale test, .025 to .031 out. Just got a big ass hammer, I am going to take the 2 by 4 knock it straight attitude. I hope everyone has a great and safe NewYear!!!! In the year 2010, Please do not read a word I post. Thanks, all you guys are great for putting up with me! May GOD take care of all of you in this next year, Love you all, Steve Anderson.
 
#10 ·
I demand a perfectly straight machinist scale and own one, if 1919A4 barrel shroud is so easy to get then why am I receiving so many PM's wanting one. I have 27, 3 are from OOW, they all need to be staightened. The sloted repro. I have will not pass the machinists scale test, .025 to .031 out. Just got a big ass hammer, I am going to take the 2 by 4 knock it straight attitude.
I didn't say they were straight, just that there are plenty available. You just named the best source I know of for originals, at a great price. I doubt most of these were straight when new made. As to the new slotted one being out of spec, that's probably a function of the tubing, which no doubt is ordered in the correct size to be slotted and threaded. The shop is probably working with stock that is less than perfect.

You saw the post on the Ordnance Dept method for straightening these, didn't you, Steve? It was quoted on another thread here recently. Let's just say it is about as delicate a process as what you describe above!
 
#11 ·
Are you serious?

Im no expert,but make stuff from steel for a living. The fact that anyone can punch holes(not laser cut) in tubing and not distort it beyond belief is amazing. Original Barrel jackets are obviously punched on a mandrel whereas modern repros are laser-cut DOM tubing. War and Manufacturing go hand-in-hand. Sure, the WD had lots of money and many directives, but that does not trump physics or the vagaries of jacking with tubing. It sucks. I would love to see the punching rig the WD had for barrel jackets, and the straightening procedeure for after. J
 
#13 ·
Im no expert,but make stuff from steel for a living. The fact that anyone can punch holes(not laser cut) in tubing and not distort it beyond belief is amazing. Original Barrel jackets are obviously punched on a mandrel whereas modern repros are laser-cut DOM tubing. War and Manufacturing go hand-in-hand. Sure, the WD had lots of money and many directives, but that does not trump physics or the vagaries of jacking with tubing. It sucks. I would love to see the punching rig the WD had for barrel jackets, and the straightening procedeure for after. J
On the visit that Lucky and I made to RIA in Oct. we viewed the manufacturing instructions for the A6. Must have been 450 pages, listed every thing necessary to set up a production facility right down to how many of each machine was required and which machines or tools could be substituted and the floor space required .

There were lists of assembly/ spare parts quantities to be manufactured with each 100 weapons. For barrels it was 100 for assembly and 400 for spares.

Probably why there are so many barrels still around.

I'd say they had the procedure nailed down pretty good at least from an industrial engineering standpoint.

However, once production started, all sorts of things likely went wrong.

We have a better understanding of how things worked, but only experiencing the real thing would give one the true picture.
 
#14 ·
Just to add an aside to this tread, as a little boy I asked my dad what his job was. He said he designed machines (as a draftsman) that knocked holes into metal. He worked for Houde, the parent Co. of Buffalo Arms. Not at the Cheektowaga assembly plant, but at the Akron facility where all guns produced were tested. I have a work bench from the Cheektowaga plant, since I've owned it over 175 1919A4's have been built on it. As I said, just an aside to the focus to the thread.
 
#15 ·
I don't know about the 30 shrouds but the 50 shrouds were stamped with holes while still a flat piece then rolled and welded. This is explained In detail in frank and dolph's book. On another note, it does not matter if the shroud is off a little, just adjust the sight or use a piece of wood to adjust the shroud.
 
#17 ·
i've built a couple...slotted the hiders so they line up with the shroud slots and turned them into flash increasers! :D



 
#19 ·
Jacket construction

I don't know about the 30 shrouds but the 50 shrouds were stamped with holes while still a flat piece then rolled and welded. This is explained In detail in frank and dolph's book. On another note, it does not matter if the shroud is off a little, just adjust the sight or use a piece of wood to adjust the shroud.

The Cal .30 jackets were "WD 1035" probably sheet form punched and rolled until REV 6, 6-18-42 when the drawing switched the material to seamless or electrically welded tubing.

This was probably a Saginaw innovation as GM likely had a lot of experience fabricating sheet metal and tubing.
 
#22 ·
Slotted Barrel Jackets

In 2001 we reproduced the COLT slotted M1919A4 barrel jacket for the standard 24" barrel, using an original sample. I will need to give credit to Mark Jacobs at Black Bear for his assistance on that project. We have since reproduced the 1919A2 Tank and Cavalry slotted barrel jacket for the 18 5/8" barrel. I will need to give credit to Dolf Goldsmith and Rollin Lofdahl at 1917A1.com for their assistance in verifying the jacket and barrel lengths and providing the plans for this project. Others have attempted to reproduce the slotted barrel jackets without using a sample or Govt blueprints. These jackets can be identified by having too many slots or missaligned slots. We are offering both jackets in Zinc Oxide (WWII Grey) Parkerizing, Manganese Phospate (Late WWII Black) Parkerizing, Black Oxide or blued.

Image

M1919A4
Image

M1919A2

www.BMGparts.com
 
#23 ·
i've built a couple...slotted the hiders so they line up with the shroud slots and turned them into flash increasers! :D
That is freakin' awsome. I ran across two FH's in a box here last week and was mulling over doing the same thing for one of my shorty guns! Now I'm sure I'll do it! :D