I'm in the market for a transferable Vickers gun and am trying to figure out the market value on them.
Are the C&R Vickers guns worth more than the Sideplate guns? ....
Let me comment again.
Yes C&R is always worth more. Original is always worth more than remake given everything else is equal. C&R has the advantages of a C&R license as well which gives you special privilege not give to the other guns.
I'm 25 years old so I'm new to the NFA and transferable market. I am astounded at how people will pay $40,000 for a little piece of metal that costs $2 to make to turn their MP5 or AR 15 full auto. You literally are spending $39,998 for a piece of paper that says your auto sear is legal. I'd rather spend half that to get 100 pounds of history and in my opinion a way cooler gun. Plus semi auto MP5's and AR's are plentiful whereas semi auto Vickers guns are not. There will be gazillions of AR's and MP5's down the road and way less Vickers parts and guns.
Then again, I've learned not to fight the free market and just accept reality. I'm the weirdo who thinks a Sten gun is cooler than an MP5 because of the open bolt mechanism and WW2 history but who am I to argue with the wisdom free market? I know spending ~$20,000 on a Vickers gun is a poor investment because I could just buy two MAC 10's and sell them down the road for more profit and more easily to people who just want to shove a magazine in their gun and shoot at their indoor range but it isn't about making money on guns, it is about buying what I like. I have a really sour taste in my mouth from all the speculators and investors trying to make money from flipping transferables. I personally think they should get the hell out of the hobby and go flip real estate, stocks, or crypto instead of squeezing every dollar out of gun collectors by hoarding guns and parts. Then again, its a free market and free country and people can do what they want to.
There is an important element that is missing from this discussion that explains most of this. AMMO! The two main types of people who buy MGs are shooters and collectors. Now collectors want C&R and pretty guns and will pay more for them but those guns also have to fit into their field of interest. So a WWII collector does not want a MG08 WWI maxim even at 25% the cost of a MG34 because he does not collect it. Then you have shooters. Shoots look at ammo. Ammo is a major cost. The days of 13 cent great surplus 308 seem to be over. Now when you buy a MG, the ammo cost and availability is a major factor. What is one of the hardest and most expensive calibers... 8mm Lebel & 303.... This is part of the reason French guns are significantly cheaper and British guns are not climbing. If we had cheap surplus 303 flood the market, you would see Vickers double in price overnight. Sure you can buy two Vickers for the price of a M16 but you can't afford to feed one Vickers for the price of feeding 3 M16s. Sure a Sten can be mechanically more interesting but if you shoot it, it sucks compared to a MP5. That MP5 is a great shooting gun and the Sten is just not that great. So for a collector or maybe an engineer, the Sten might be more interesting. However for a shooter, the MP5 is clearly far superior.
I have a French Chauchat 1915 and a Hotchkiss 1914. Both of these guns appeal was they were significantly cheaper than they should have been for what you get. The main reason, 8mm Lebel is a PITA. Its either super expensive to buy or a PITA to reload. Had these guns been as expensive as their counterparts, I would have no interest in buying them. Part of the reason I like them is that I could afford to get into them cheap and then reload to keep my ammo costs down. However I pay this in the huge amount of effort and time it takes to reload for a MG. This is far more than most are willing to do. How many people do you know reloading 8mm Lebel? Or 303 as it pertains to the Vickers?
Time moves on and people feel less connected and so are less interested in older and older times. This is why there is less interest in Civil war and WWI and more in WWII and now Vietnam. Looks at vintage M16 parts. They want from worthless old crap to super expensive. You have to understand that the market is not made from a uniform type of people and so there are multiple reasons why people buy what they buy.
Just so you guys are aware but the poster of this thread is a young guy just starting in the hobby but he is a sharp kid and I see him sticking around for a while. We have spent some time on the phone and he has certainly done his homework into the class three stuff so take that for what it's worth.
A. I hope you enjoy your new Vickers, she is a beauty that you will enjoy for years to come. I will be in touch on the others that we discussed through email.
If he was sharp, he would see a MG08 is clearly cooler than a Vickers and be asking about a Maxim!
I am now 41. I had never shot a gun when I turned 20. I had my first MG by 26. I now have 8. I have a family and not a lot of extra money for guns. Most of my gun money comes from buying and selling gun parts. Most of my paycheck gets eaten up by family obligations.
In the end, you have to ask yourself. Why a Vickers? Are you a collector or a shooter or both? Is the extra for C&R worth it to YOU? I have determined that I don't need C&R for a premium price but I would sure be happy with one for the same price. I am also fine with dewats. My MG08/15, Hotchkiss and Chauchat came with welded barrels and I reactivated them. If you are a shooter, will you shoot the Vickers in 303 or convert to 308? Do you reload or buying new ammo? If you are a collector, does it having a repro plate bother you? I know collectors on this forum who would be happy to cough up $30k on a C&R but would not pay $10k for a plate gun (unless to flip) as thats not what they collect. In the end, you have to see what matters to you, not everyone else, and if the extra money is worth it to you.
There are guns that are "better deals" at certain periods of time. I watch for these and when the Jap Type 96 MGs were going for the same price as a Mac, I bought one. The Vickers market is soft right now but so is the MG08 Market and historically they are cheaper than Vickers and 8mm is easier to get than 303.... however if you hate German guns and love British guns, this means nothing to you. To me the key is understanding your own interests. Once you know yourself, you will know what to buy.
